Renford Talbert Williams oral history transcript

              INTERVIEW WITH RENFORD TALBERT WILLIAMS

BY MARK MADISON and GEORGE GENTRY

TENSUS RIVER NWR, MAY 20, 2003

[The following is a recorded telephone conversation]

MR. MADISON: I wonder if it would be possible to talk to you a little bit about

Ben Lilly and your career while weíve got you on the phone?

MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, you bet.

MR. MADISON: And maybe we could tape it for an oral history; do a preliminary

one now and then, of one of us comes down there, we could do a proper one in

person. Does that sound all right?

MR. WILLIAMS: All right, if thatís what yall want.

MR. MADISON: Well, the first thing I need to do is to ask you to spell your

name so I can get it right in the form.

MR. WILLIAMS: All right, Renford; R-E-N-F-O-R-D, Talbert; T-A-L-B-E-R-T,

Williams; W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S.

MR. MADISON: Okay, and the only other thing I need from you is if itís okay for

us to tape this conversation?

MR. WILLIAMS: You bet! As long as itís for the benefit of the Refuge and

helping us get more land or something, you bet!

MR. MADISON: Weíll be happy to use it in any way that will help the Refuge and

help the Service.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thatís what I need.

MR. MADISON: Well, letís go back; Iíd love to hear some more about your

relationship with Ben Lilly.

MR. WILLIAMS: Well, he had a daughter here that was Superintendent of

Education, and a visiting teacher for whenever we had a sick teacher in one of

these little one-room schoolhouses like we had all over the country. She taught

school here for right close to forty years, if I can remember right. For some

reason in the fourth grade she took me for her pet. Man, Iím going to tell you,

she was a great, wonderful woman. And her husband was a Postmaster here at

Tallulah for thirty of forty years. They lived here for their lifetime in

Tallulah after she got out of college at LSU. Mr. Lilly had published a book.

It came out in 1950, I believe it was; the first edition, and is still coming

out in print from a College over there in Texas, Austin I believe it is. They

are still doing copies of it. They do so many hundred copies of Ben Lilly

legend. A few years ago it went into just a new frenzy about Ben Lilly. Of

course I had been having a few copies of this and that and the other about it.

The thing kind of caught me, you know the President Roosevelt came and made his

bear hunt here in 1907. What I know now, and after I got up to where I could

read a little bit and read and think and study, you know, a great man like that

coming here, and visiting. So that helped me stay on Ben Lillyís trail hard and

heavy.

MR. MADISON: Yeah, that was a famous visit by Roosevelt.

MR. WILLIAMS: Is that right?

MR. MADISON: Yep, weíve read about it out here.

MR. WILLIAMS: Is that right?

MR. MADISON: Yep.

MR. GENTRY: Didnít Ben Lilley have a camp thatís not to far from you guys? Is

it still standing tall?

MR. WILLIAMS: No, itís just an old chimney and itís on the ground. That old

camp of his is across the river about a mile north of Refuge HQ here. I

probably two or three hundred of those square nails that I picked up around his

old campsite. Iíve got, I canít remember, I havenít pulled that slip out for

showing in several years, parts of one whole whetstone and parts of two more.

He was a big knife maker as well as a bear and cat hunter. He made lots of

knives. And these big old rocks, he wore them thin in the middle, until a

couple of them broke. I got maybe a half of one and both halves of another and

another whole one thatís nearly ready to break. I found an old bullet mold at

that camp. I donít know what heíd be doing with an old bullet mold.

MR. MADISON: Was he making his own bullets, you reckon?

MR. WILLIAMS: Possibly, very possibly. Iíve always picked up old iron around

these old pre-Civil War home areas. I toted it from the time I was twelve years

old. I brought that stuff home with me. I wound up with so much of it that

about three years ago I give a good friend of mine a whole pickup truck load of

it. Now, I wished I hadnít because I was hoping that one day maybe the Refuge

would get a museum and put it all in it.

MR. MADISON: That would be great.

MR. WILLIAMS: Iíve got just lots of stuff from these old house sites. A lot of

your old house sites is fast disappearing. Here on the Refuge, we donít own the

spot, but weíve got one of these old big gin [cotton] chimneys. In fact, itís

one of the biggest chimneys ever made for a cotton gin. Itís surrounded by

refuge, but a fellow bought if for a camp lot. I wish there was some way we

could preserve that old chimney. Right near that old chimney, he had a brick

house with seven rooms. Today you can still see the brick about knee high

around every room. Every window and door, you can see where it was. Itís on

private property yet, but itís just a one-acre block. I believe we could

probably buy that if weíd pursue it a little bit. Because the man that stayed

on it years ago, heíd dead and here it all is rusting. Then thereís an old big

brick house that Mr. Presley was working on; it was three stories high, and high

enough off of the ground where you could drive team of horses with a wagon, or

buggies under it; in case of bad weather you wouldnít get wet getting into this

house. He near about had it finished when the war come along. I got a few old

records from that, but itís been a lot of digging there over the years; hunting

all of that silver and gold money he had, and a big bale that he buried to keep

the soldiers from finding it. [Sounds like] His brother in law stabbed him over

yonder at the crossing; he was fixing to head out to Texas. Back in í56 his

great great grandson came over here and I spent a day and half, or nearly two

days and he told me a lot about it that I didnít know about. He said that Mr.

Presley is buried near that old gin chimney. His wife, she continued on the

plantation there for just a few years and couldnít make it. She finally sold

it. But weíve got numerous old house sites all up and down this river. At one

time I could have told you most of the people that lived there but Iím kind of

getting to advanced age, you know. That old mind it not as bright as it used to

be.

MR. MADISON: It doesnít sound that way to us, at this end of the phone.

MR. WILLIAMS: Itís just an old retired State Game Warden here. I retired in

1980 with State Wildlife. Iíve got a lot of help [tape skips]Öabout all kind of

wildlife activities. The time I went to work with the State there was only five

parishes that had any deer in it; Madison and Kennesaw was the two that was the

heaviest. So weíve gotten a re-stocking program in the 50ís. It ended up in

about í63 or í64. Today, weíve got deer all over the State from that. Wild

turkeys; our turkey flocks was huge. Here is this big, virgin timber area.

Whenever they got to sawing, why, there wasnít much virgin timber left here.

They got it cut out. Chicago Mill went to selling it. They bought, I believe,

and I may be wrong on some of this, but they bought that Singer Sewing Machine

Company in í26, I think. They put the land on sale and they cut it. They

clear-cut it. For so much acreage, if you buy a section or more it was $17.00

an acre. You could pick a section wherever you wanted it. So boy, they sold

lots of land. Here lately they went back to trying to buy a lot of it back that

hadnít been cleared. And a lot of people have sold land back them. In í65,

well, it started in ë64; they put it on sale again. The State of Louisiana

could have bought this land for about $28.00 an acre but they would have had to

have bought everything in every state they had a corporation in. At that time,

it entire thing sold for about 36 or 37 million dollars. That included saw

mills, woods, lumber and everything on hand. For miles down, they just went all

to pieces. It had done got to where lumber was cheap; there wasnít no money in

it. Thatís when the [Sounds like] Prescott family, they bought this in í65.

They took all cash, all debts and maybe it was somewhere around a million and a

half dollars in debt that they had. They had something like thirteen million in

the bank in Chicago. They got all of that, so they really sold the land. Of

course Mr. Prescott; J. Prescott, he died in í96 I believe or í97. I was with

the first group whenever he came down here to check on the land, and thinking

about possibly buying some of it. He made a statement to the crowd, he said,

that he didnít know just what he had down here, but he knew it was a lot of land

but heíd never been on it. He didnít want any of the local employees to know

that he had been here. They went to selling and we finally got the government

to move. Jimmy Carter, he voted to buy all of the land that they had. Reagan

came in and he said that we were selling government land, weíre not buying. So

we got a young man to help get us all to a coalition board over there at

Shreveport, Louisiana. He was Skipper Dickson. Him and his Daddy had

contributed to Reaganís campaign. After we gotten everything kind of moving,

they got in their airplane and went to Washington to meet with Reagan. When

they come back they said they got a commitment for fifty thousand acres. Today,

weíre getting close to seventy thousand. Chicago Millís got lots more land

surrounding us and joining us thatís up for sale right now. Weíve got no money

to buy it with. Even at todayís high prices itíd still be a bargain. We need

to try to get some of these woods back.

MR. MADISON: Oh yeah! Hey Mr. Williams, how did you end up working at the

Refuge?

MR. WILLIAMS: After I retired, they got after me to go to work with Fish and

Wildlife Service.

MR. MADISON: When would this have been. Was it 1980, did you say?

MR. WILLIAMS: Actually, it was January 24, 1981. I said, ìAlright, Iíll just

do that.î And I didnít much want to even think about another job. I was a Club

Warden on a big Club here even though we knew it was going to be cleared up in

the next three, four of five years. So I went ahead and took the job. After a

week and a half, I tried to quit, they wouldnít let me. Do you know Ray Acock

at Jackson?

MR. MADISON: No, I donít.

MR. WILLIAMS: Heís been with Fish and Wildlife all of his life, since college

days. Heís the one that pushed me. And the Refuge Supervisor in Atlanta, Steve

Prigg, he wanted me. So here I am today, Iím looking at 73 for my next

birthday. And I was born here on the Tensas. I was raised on it. Iíve gone

away from it for five years. Two of that was in the Service during the draft

during the Korean deal. I was the first man drafted from this Parish for the

Army. A few years later, we lost the Tensas in í65; after í65 on. They had a

hot spot down in the central part of Louisiana, they had bought a bunch of land,

the State Wildlife had. And they had built some nice homes on it, and offices

and shop, and all that. So Dr. Glasgow, he was a Professor at LSU, he had got

into the position of being Director of the State Wildlife. We was heading down

to the mouth of the Mississippi River and he come out on the bow of a boat where

I was sitting watching everything. It was in November. He told me he was glad

that I was out there by myself because he wanted to talk to me about something.

I couldnít imagine what Iíd done for him to talk to me. But he told me what he

wanted, and I said, ìLord God, I donít care nothing about going down there.î He

said, ìWe want you to come along and take a look at it.î He kept talking and

asked me if I wanted more money, and I said, ìNot much more that Iím making

nowî. He covered all of that, so I went down there for three years. I had the

devil getting away from down there but trouble soon stopped and they havenít had

any more trouble that I know of since. Itís just keeping the local people fired

up about stuff. So thatís how I spent three of the five years I left Tensas. I

was born in an old log house on what they called the old Lynn-Davis place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Talbert, in your work with the State and with the Fish and

Wildlife Service, did you ever work with Dave Hall?

MR. WILLIAMS: Yep, Yep.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What sort of cases did you work on with him?

MR. WILLIAMS: I never did work that much with Dave, but I did some. Yeah, I

knew Dave. There was old Sidney Woodson, Terry White, there was a fellow named

Barnes, I canít remember his first name. He helped us on a lot of State cases.

And weíd help him on federal cases. It was Dick Barnes. I donít know of yall

are familiar with him. Heís been dead quite a few years. He left here and went

to Tennessee and died not too long after that. Is Hall the Game Warden that

wrote a book?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, they wrote a book about him called, Game Wars.

MR. WILLIAMS: Game Wars, yeah, Iíve got a copy of it. I was trying to refresh

my [memory]. I was trying to remember if he worked on the White Perch case down

in Concordia Parish.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right!

MR. WILLIAMS: I wasnít on them cases. See, I done retired when this allÖI had

been retired two, three or four years when that come about. Iíve got some

picture of nets that we laid on Larto Lake the first time in í62, I believe it

was. February of í62. I used to make a lot of, or a good many dove cases and

duck cases up here. I enjoyed the little, the pay is better over here than the

DA over there would pay. Iíd pick up a little Christmas money along.

JEROME: Talbert was revered up here like Dave Hall, they just didnít write a

book about him. A lot of people still have a lot of respect for Talbert. When

he see him now, they remember him in his Game Warden days, and they still call

him ëWildlife Agent Williamsí because he commanded their respect and the cases

that he made. People still remember that today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that the Larto Lake White Perch, that was a really

big, hot item in Game Wars. There was a lot of graft and a lot of problems with

the local Sheriffs and Judges and District Attorneys and everything. They were

all on the take and they were all making a lot of money from those White Perch.

Millions of pounds of White Perch were being taken from Larto Lake.

MR. WILLIAMS: Youíre right, and Iím going to tell you something else; the

Assistant Chief of Law Enforcement, he had brothers living down there in that

business.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were they the Books [family]?

MR. WILLIAMS: Julius Books.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Books, yeah, uhuh.

MR. WILLIAMS: I know him well. [unintelligible].

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dave Hall is a really good friend of mine and heíd told me

a lot of stories about that sort of thing. They are very fascinating, and the

book is really good too.

MR. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah. One of our State men got shot down there. He lived

down there. Somewhere about, I donít know, the late ë50s or early ë60ís down on

Larto Lake; he went down there by his self. I tell you what, on that raid we

pulled, and Iíve got pictures of me and another two State Agents; Red Hillfinger

and Vance Head. Larry and I were in a boat. We got to pulling up nets near the

shore where he had them hid, every one of them illegal and lot of them were full

of White Perch and Bass. They were leaving the authority of the boats and

leaving the lake pretty bad there. We were still running a lot of nets and we

didnít have no radio and walkie-talkies in them days, like we got now. We left

two boats up there in that south end of that lake. We were busy pulling up

nets. The last two or three nets I pulled up. I done left fishing off, ëcause

weíd done been told to get out from down there. We got through and everybody

wanted some of them White Perch. Shoot, I kinda wanted some of ëem myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well they say that the White Perch from anywhere else just

arenít as good as they are from Larto Lake.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thatís always good, fresh water. Before all of this land

clearing come into being. Thatís what that was. Today, I bet the fish donít

taste too good, and I ainít been fishing there in years, they were good. But

telling you about that; after we was getting loaded up, we had all the nets

loaded up; an old boy come down on the bank in front of his house where we was

loading. He said, ìYall ainít taking my nets off?î I said, ìYes, Iím afraid we

are. Theyíve got to go to [unintelligible]î. He said, ìYall donít have to do

that, now! Iíll have them back in the morning!î Iíll tell you what; a bunch of

us had to go back the next morning, we had to go back and take those nets back!

Not only what us two boats had picked up, but what everybody had picked up,

which all of them had nets in there. They had pushed them off on the bank and

theyíd straight them out to sell. Whenever they got ready to go; let me back up

a minute; the Chief of Enforcement was Jimmy Gillespie, he was trying not to let

the Assistant Chief know it. He went to talk to the Sheriff and the DA. He

told them not to take a lot of men in there, because somebody was going to get

killed. But then he said whenever they have trouble, to let them settle their

own trouble, and they did. Then we went ahead and raided anyhow. Right after

that deal, thatís where I moved to down there. Gosh dern, I canít even think of

the name of it now, but itís Dewey Wills Management Area now. Thatís where I

went to live, in that hotspot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, those were dangerous times werenít they?

MR. WILLIAMS: You bet. I married a girl from [there], Faye was raised over

there in that mess there in 1960. Whenever I told her that night that I had

come back from Baton Rouge to pick up a pickup truck, I told her, ìWell, I got

to get up and be at [unintelligible] at two oíclock. Weíve got to still make a

fish raid.î She said, ìWhere are you going?î I told her I didnít know, for

sure. She said, ìYou take your high powered rifle, some of them peopleíll kill

you down there if you ainít carefulî. I says, ìI ainít gonna need no rifleî,

but I did have a sidearm. I enjoyed that. Did yall, by the way, see the

documentary onÖ.I canít think of the name of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE in LA: I canít think of the name of it Talbert. But yeah, we

did a documentary of establishing the Tensas here. Weíll be happy to send you

guys a copy. But itís kind of featuring Talbert and Hartwood right here at

Tensas.

MR. MADISON: Weíd love to get that Jerome that would be super! Jerome, what

Iím thinking is that we need to come down with a camera and film Talbert and

maybe follow him around to a couple of these sites heís talking about.

JEROME: You bet.

MR. MADISON: And look over some of these documents if he is amenable. And

maybe; do you guys know George Gentry?

JEROME: Yeah, weíve met with him. Iíve been here about three years, and he was

trying to put together a videotape of Tensas with some old slides and stuff we

had. But that didnít work out. Yeah, I know of Mr. Gentry.

MR. MADISON: Talbert, heís our chief of video up here. He makes all of our

films and that. Heís retiring this summer in like June. He wants to do oral

histories with us after this, just as a volunteer. I was thinking that maybe

Jeanne or I could come down and hook up with George and do some good filming of

some of these places with Talbert talking. Youíve got too many good stories and

images and locations to do it justice on a tape, basically on a speakerphone.

MR. WILLIAMS: Right.

MR. MADISON: Youíve just got to promise us that youíre not going to retire for

another year!

MR. WILLIAMS: WellÖI tried and Jerome said, ìDonít do it, we need you here,

hear?î

MR. MADISON: But I think that will be our long term plan if that makes sense

for you guys?

JEROME: Oh yeah, I think thatís the way to do it. And Talbert is a local icon

here and I think in many ways could be a national icon because the stories are

definitely true. We also have Mr. Dewitt Arnold who works here who is the

oldest employee in the Fish and Wildlife Service. Talbert and ìMr. DDî have

comparable stories because they have lived here all their lives. Itís

fascinating to hear these stories.

MR. MADISON: I think we need to get George there and catch both of them.

Jeanne or myself, or both of us will come down and weíll do an oral history

where we have it on film because I think like you mentioned earlier Jerome, this

might be something we want to use for a future visitor center film, or to teach

people about this particular refuge and itís fascinating history, or, of

internal uses like when we do a refuge video; to have featured some of our older

employees.

JEROME: You bet. And I know, I guess you guys have got some stuff already on

Ben Lilly there. We actually have a bridge named in his honor on the south end

of the refuge. Ben Lilly was a big person in this part of the world.

MR. MADISON: Yeah, heís one of our Conservation Heroes out here.

JEROME: Exactly! Thereí some controversial stories, I know Talbert can tell

you all about them when you get here, but some people liked Ben Lilly and some

people just thought he had done run off his wife and his kids and he was a

ìnoaccountî. But that just makes him all the more interesting.

MR. MADISON: Yeah, the important thing is that heís an important historical

figure.

MR. WILLIAMS: He was with the old rat and Rodent Patrol for the government for

years. It was twice. He jumped two or three years at a time. He didnít like

the way the government did things; theyíd take too long to get something done.

MR. MADISON: Well, thatís all changed today!

MR. WILLIAMS: Talking about that film; a station out of Pittsburgh sent a crew

down here to film some of us. Of course, Iím on it with about twelve minutes.

The name of it was ìConserving Americaís Wetlandsî.

MR. MADISON: Oh neat. I would love to see that film.

MR. WILLIAMS: Theyíve got me on it. And you know how my voice sounds; itís a

bad situation!

MR. MADISON: I can understand every word youíre saying!

JEROME: Thatís right; we love that accent!

MR. MADISON: Thatís right. And Iím from as far away from you guys as possible.

I am from Wisconsin originally.

JEROME: Is that in the United States?

MR. MADISON: Just barely! [All laughing and enjoying the jokes.] But why

donít we do that? Why donít I try and coordinate at this end, and see. Is

there any particular time Jerome, that would be really worthwhile coming? You

know, when something special is happening on the refuge?

MR. WILLIAMS: Hunting and fishing days.

JEROME: Yeah, we have hunting and fishing day, which is on the fourth Saturday

in September. Itís kind of like a little festival we have. Thereís a couple

thousand people that will be out here on the Visitor Center grounds. Back in

MarchÖ weíre moving; Louisiana Black Bear, as you know, is a threatened species

so you may be able to get some footage of that if you want to come at that time

of year.

MR. MADISON: God, that would be great, to get to footage of that!

JEROME: Yeah, and like this morning I came to the refuge and I saw nine

turkeys, seven deer and four bear in the road this morning. So right now, is a

good time if you want to just get out early in the morning you could probably

capture some wildlife, you know, out there just doing their own thing. The

worst time for us is probably from the middle of October or the first of

November to the end of February because its hunting season. Weíre just kind of

wrapped up with that whole deal because we actually have the largest while

tailed deer hunting program in the nation. So thatís the worst time. But any

other time, I think, would be fine.

MR. MADISON: Although I hate to put it off that long, I would love to come in

March, because if we could get some footage of the Louisiana Black Bear too,

that would be so invaluable to us.

JEROME: Yes, and Talbert, and I donít think he mentioned that he was in on some

bear relocation stuff, it was from Minnesota wasnít it Talbert?

MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I made six trips to Minnesota trapping bear and bringing

them back down here. That was after we lost the Chicago Mill land. I knew the

Supervisor on the Madison portion of it then and after we lost it the State just

went to using it, any and everywhere.

JEROME: Weíve got pictures of Talbert releasing some of those bears. Itís a

threatened species here, but at one point we had pretty much lost all of our

bears in the State, or were just about there. The Minnesota bear was closely

related genetically as anything, and they moved them down here and I think they

all pretty much left, didnít they Talbert?

MR. WILLIAMS: I think every one of them left!

JEROME: But he was a big part of getting the bear back in this country. But

what Iíll do is go make you guys a copy of that tape that heís talking about,

right now, and itís going to give you some ideas. Then you just pick and choose

what time of year you want to come and weíll be waiting on you.