Steve Kufrin oral history transcript

              INTERVIEW WITH STEVE KUFRIN

JANUARY 19, 2005 BY DOROTHE NORTON

MS. NORTON: Steve, where were you born, and when?

MR. KUFRIN: I was born in October of 1942 in New Ulm, which is in Brown County

Minnesota. My father was a Veterinarian who had a practice in Benson, MN. It wasn’t

long before my mother and I moved from Winthrop, where her parents lived to Benson.

That’s where I grew up and graduated from High School and worked for a bunch of years

as a news and sports editor of the Benson newspaper.

MS. NORTON: What was your dad’s name?

MR. KUFRIN: He went by Dr. R. S. Kufrin. He didn’t like Rubin.

MS. NORTON: And your Mom’s name?

MR. KUFRIN: Mom’s first name was Victoria, or “Tory”. She was a schoolteacher for

quite a few years in Benson. She also helped my Dad. They had four kids to get up too.

MS. NORTON: What did you do in your early years? Did you like to walk through the

woods and look at the birds? What did you do, anything special?

MR. KUFRIN: I’ll answer that by telling you this, which I tell my girls quite often; we

played football. I was a three-year starter on the varsity football team in high school.

After every Friday night game, my friend who had a 1937 of ’47 Ford parked by the

school. He had it fully loaded with all of our hunting gear for the weekend. We had food,

shotguns, shells, waders, hip boots and all the rest of our clothes in there. As soon as the

football game was done and we could get out of the locker room, or got back to school on

the bus; the first thing we did was to head for his car, jump and we headed to Lake

Johanna, which is in Pope County, northwest of Benson, my hometown. My father

leased some land and there was a little hunting cabin there. We would spend the entire

weekend there. So that gives you an idea pretty much of where my interests were.

MS. NORTON: Did you have any hobbies other than football? Did you like to read a

lot or …?

MR. KUFRIN: I read quite a bit.

MS. NORTON: Did you ever have a job before you graduated High School?

MR. KUFRIN: Oh yeah, I had the various typical high school jobs, mowing lawns,

raking lawns, newspaper delivery. I weighed gravel in the gravel pit by Swift Falls. They

were just the menial jobs like that where I earned 50 cents an hour. It seemed like a lot of

money back then.

MS. NORTON: Did you hunt or fish when you were young?

MR. KUFRIN: Constantly.

MS. NORTON: What High School did you graduate from, and when?

MR. KUFRIN: I graduated form Benson High School in 1960.

MS. NORTON: What university did you attend?

MR. KUFRIN: I went to Morris College after I got out of the military. I served in the

Air Force from 1960 to 1965 including three years in Great Britain at small intelligence

base there. When I got out my father had cancer so I got a job just working around

Benson. He died that October. I got out in May and he died in October so we didn’t

have a whole lot of time to spend together. Then I went to Wilmer Community College in

Wilmer, MN. I was the Editor of the college newspaper and President of the Student

Body. I was there for a couple of years as I recall. I helped the baseball coach and the

football coach. We did fortunately have all of our classes; me and a good friend, we had

all of our classes scheduled from about 11am on during the day so we could get out and

hunt every morning. We did a lot of hunting. East of Benson and north of Degrath there

was a very good diver lake that we hunted at. I knew the owners through my father and

his being a Veterinarian; we had permission to hunt a couple of different private

properties. We’d go out there to hunt and still be back at school in time for our first class

at 11am.

MS. NORTON: From Wilmer College, did you go over the university after that?

MR. KUFRIN: No. When I finished there; I didn’t get a degree. I came up just a couple

credits short. I wanted to work and make some money. I thought I could always go back,

but that didn’t happen. I ended up staying at the newspaper for quite a few years. I was

there until I left to join the FWS.

MS. NORTON: So what branch of the military did you say you were in?

MR. KUFRIN: I was in the Air Force. I was in for five years. I was in England at

Tricksands Air Force Base for three years.

MS. NORTON: Did you ever have any decorations or medals for your service? Did you

ever do anything special that would have earned you special recognition?

MR. KUFRIN: I do. It was nothing associated with any military action, but was the

honor student of my class when I was at the Air Force Tech School. I was at the Tech

School at Biloxi, Mississippi. I think that was for nine months. I graduated at the honor

student of my class so I had the opportunity to select my own duty station, so that’s

why I ended up in England.

MS. NORTON: After you got out of the Service and college and everything what was

your idea about the future regarding what it was you wanted to do?

MR. KUFRIN: I knew I wanted to get into conservation or something along that line, I

didn’t know exactly what. But as my career with the newspaper progressed it just sort

of fit in naturally where I had the opportunity to become a columnist and write more

about conservation all of the time. That’s pretty much the background of how I got

started. I was able fortunately to become acquainted with a lot of the folks who worked

at the Benson Wetland Management District. I think that was the first District formed in

MN. I got to know some of the fellows who worked there. They were friends of my

father’s. They helped steer me along in the conservation arena too. I felt very fortunate

that I had the opportunity to do a lot of writing on conservation. I just felt that I wanted

to continue. I did, and was very fortunate that eventually I was asked by FWS if I would

like to join them in the Regional Office. I was honored to be asked, and I said yes, I

would definitely like to do that. So, in 1998 or 99 I moved out here and started working

in the RO under Dick Tolsman. He was actually the one who hired me. I think one of the

reasons he hired me was because when I was in Benson doing the conservation writing I

had the opportunity to form good relationships with a lot of the conservation

organizations like Ducks Unlimited and Pheasants Forever.

MS. NORTON: Was Al Radke working out there then?

MR. KUFRIN: Al was Manager of the Morris Wetland Management District. I got to

Al quite well. We became friends and he steered my conservation philosophy in the

proper direction. I remember doing some things for Ducks Unlimited. For example; there

was a gentleman who had some farmland up by Herman, MN. The FWS was trying to

get an easement on it. I was able to go out and after a couple of weeks of meeting with

this gentleman in Herman; I was able to talk him in to selling the easement. Al was very

appreciative of that because neither he nor Dick could get it done. I don’t mean that in a

derogatory sense, but I just was able to talk his language. So the FWS was finally able to

buy the easement from him. There were a lot of things like that. Al called my up from

his office one day when I was at my office at the Waterfowl Association. He asked me if

I would be willing to contact a number of the partners and solicit some funds so they

could buy an earthmover to help them in the job of restoring wetlands. These big

machines were made in Benson. I think I raised enough money through my contacts with

the partners to get a couple of them so they could start restoring wetlands. That was just

a little before the Partners for FWS got going. I was able to play a part by getting those

earthmovers for the Morris WMD. I was pretty proud of that. I always felt very good

about the relationships I had with the fellows in the FWS. I always held them in the

highest esteem. They treated me well, and I was honored whenever I could do something

for them. A few years later I was hired by them. It turned out to be a very nice story.

MS. NORTON: I turned out to be to our [FWS] advantage to have you working with us.

Can you tell me when where and how you met your wife?

MR. KUFRIN: I met my wife in Benson. She was teaching and I met her there. She

dropped some pea soup off one morning on the way to work at the newspaper where I

was at. That sort of really got the romance flourishing then! I figured that any gal who

could make pea soup like that definitely had a place in my life. That’s how we got going.

We were married in a little Lutheran church at Lake Hassel north of Benson. It was an old

church built by the homesteaders on the east side of the Lake. Lake Hassel was a diver

lake for many years until it developed carp problems. There used to be tremendous

amounts of Redhead and Canvasback, Scop and Mallard hunting out there. We were

married out there by a Minister who graduated from Ustavis Aldophus College at St.

Peter. His name Dwight Johnson and he was about as goofy for hunting and fishing as I

was. Jill and I asked him if he would marry and he said he would be honored to. He

married us and he also baptized both of our daughters in that church. That church is still

standing. When we were married and when both our kids were baptized there, we planted

trees in the homesteader’s cemetery that is right across the gravel road from the church.

MS. NORTON: So you had two children?

MR. KUFRIN: We have two daughters; Emily is 16 and Becka is 14. They are still in

High School, and going strong. They have a lot more energy than I do. They are good

girls.

MS. NORTON: Was your duty station with FWS always in the Regional Office?

MR. KUFRIN: Yes, always in the Regional Office.

MS. NORTON: What did you think that the pay and benefits were like when you came

to work for the federal government?

MR. KUFRIN: Wonderful, compared to working in Benson for the newspaper. They

were hard to believe really.

MS. NORTON: Well, Benson is a small town. But when thinking about the future,

you’ve got to…you did a good thing.

MR. KUFRIN: And of course with the wife and all, and the family coming I was very

appreciative of the opportunity to join the FWS and work in the capacity that they hired

me in.

MS. NORTON: When you started, what was your title and grade?

MR. KUFRIN: I can’t remember it’s been so long ago. Basically it was fundraising and

working with various programs and partners and the cost share programs and making that

run. I was helping the field stations as they prepared cost share proposals. I worked

with our partners as they worked with our field stations. It was basically in that capacity

as a cost share coordinator. I also did some fundraising. I can’t remember what grade I

started at.

MS. NORTON: Did you have promotion opportunities once you came to work for

FWS?

MR. KUFRIN: I did. It was a little slow but there were a couple of in-grade promotions

every year. I was happy with it.

MS. NORTON: They probably hired you at a pretty decent grade because of all of your

knowledge and ability and past experience. Did you ever socialize with any of the people

that you worked with?

MR. KUFRIN: I did when I was in Benson because it was easier to get together with

them. But down here, I didn’t. There was really no one that lived around here. You just

didn’t see them after you’d get off of work. But we did talk occasionally on the phone.

Steve Wiles and I would hunt or fish together occasionally. It was mostly those kinds of

outdoor activities that we did. Socially, not too much but occasionally we’d go out to

dinner or a movie with Steve and his wife Diane.

MS. NORTON: Did your career with FWS affect your family in any way?

MR. KUFRIN: I don’t think it affected them negatively, it was all positive. My girls

enjoy fishing. They don’t enjoy hunting. They knew some of the people I met through

work. We’ve been to Twins baseball games with the Leech family a couple times. The

girls had the chance to meet people that way, but now they are so busy it’s just hard.

Boy!

MS. NORTON: They keep you busy too!

MR. KUFRIN: They keep us rolling, that’s for sure Dorothe!

MS. NORTON: When you came to FWS did you get any kind of special training? Or,

was your training just on the job?

MR. KUFRIN: Not really. There was a little computer training at the Minnesota School

of Business. But that was basically it. This computer stuff was fairly new for FWS too

so we were all learning together.

MS. NORTON: I know that when we got those computers I didn’t even want one! But

I learned I guess.

MR. KUFRIN: Yeah, we had too!

MS. NORTON: So, when working at the Regional Office you just worked the regular

office hours?

MR. KUFRIN: Yeah.

MS. NORTON: What were your day-to-day duties?

MR. KUFRIN: I helped run the cost share program and work with organizations like the

Waterfowl Association. I helped them with ideas about cost share programs that they

might be interested in. It was the same with Ducks Unlimited.

MS. NORTON: Did you ever have to use any special tools or instruments?

MR. KUFRIN: Nothing really more than the computer and the telephone.

MS. NORTON: Did you ever witness any new FWS inventions?

MR. KUFRIN: Not that I can recall.

MS. NORTON: Did you ever work with animals?

MR. KUFRIN: Not while I was with FWS. I did when I was hunting but that’s about it.

MS. NORTON: Did you feel that you got good support locally, regionally or federally

for your work?

MR. KUFRIN: Oh regionally, yes. Everybody was very supportive.

MS. NORTON: How do you think the FWS was perceived by people outside the

agency?

MR. KUFRIN: I think that the FWS is a well-kept secret. There’s not a lot of people

outside that really seem to know what the different responsibilities of FWS are, other

than those pertaining to fish, mostly salmon I would guess and migratory waterfowl that

can be hunted…that’s about it. That’s how people relate to FWS unless they get picked

for poaching. Then they can relate pretty good.

MS. NORTON: So you felt like agency and community relations were pretty good?

MR. KUFRIN: I thought so.

MS. NORTON: That’s good, because you worked with the community more so

probably than other people did.

MR. KUFRIN: Yeah, especially when I was living out at Benson. I thought that the

relationship between the folks from that office or the Morris office and the community

were very good. That was a difficult time because conservation agencies, including the

DNR were not always looked at favorably because of the drainage and the grasslands

issues. Here’s the FWS telling the public that we have save our waters and our grasslands

and the communities with all of their agricultural people didn’t always look favorably on

the FWS or really try to understand why FWS felt that way. Now I think there is a

greater understanding about the importance of wetlands and grasslands.

MS. NORTON: Were people confused sometimes…about who you worked for? Did

they think you were DNR rather than FWS?

MR. KUFRIN: Yes, they did.

MS. NORTON: I still have people say that to me today. I had never heard of the FWS

before I worked there. I knew that a duck and goose were birds, but I didn’t know the

difference. But I learned a lot and I really enjoyed working with the wonderful people at

FWS.

MR. KUFRIN: That was it. That’s why I enjoyed working there too. I didn’t enjoy

working in the cities, where I had to drive about 25 miles every day. But they were such

wonderful people to work with. They are very honest and sincere and very committed.

They were just real nice, wonderful people. It made going in to work very enjoyable

because you knew you’d be with these people.

MS. NORTON: I know that about two months after I retired I woke up one Monday

morning and I realized I didn’t have to go to work. I thought “I don’t have my job with

those people any more!” I started to cry! Then I told myself that I was the one who had

applied for retirement and I would have to figure out something to keep busy. That’s

why I’m so happy doing this volunteer job interviewing because I have learned so much

about what other divisions and people like you did to help the FWS. It’s grown and

improved a lot.

MR. KUFRIN: I really miss working now. But unfortunately now, I can’t drive because

of this brain tumor. The medical people were concerned about me having a seizure while I

was driving. That was sort of the handwriting on the wall. Then, I was hoping that I

might be about to work on the computer at home a bit, but physically, I’m not able to do

it. I don’t feel I’m strong enough to do it.

MS. NORTON: Well that might improve!

MR. KUFRIN: I certainly hope so!

MS. NORTON: I do too! Were there ever any special projects that you had to deal

with, or any special committees that you had to deal with?

MR. KUFRIN: They were all pretty much special projects, but one that sticks out most

recently was with the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation. I was able to talk to Bob

Hauptman and Jim Hauptman and they were willing to do some original paintings that we

were able to consolidate into one picture honoring the anniversary of the FWS. So

through the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation we were able to get them paid for their

time and effort for their paintings and we were able to get the paintings printed on to one

painting and come up with a little bit of an advertising scheme for the public. That was

just one example. All of the money that came back in to F and W Foundation from the

sale of these prints will be used as a cost share, or matching grant program in honor of the

Hauptmans out on the land where we can do a restoration or we can do something in

honor of the 100th anniversary of the FWS. That’s an example of one of the special

projects I was involved in.

MS. NORTON: Were there every any major issues that you were involved in or had to

deal with?

MR. KUFRIN: Nothing really significant, no.

MS. NORTON: Who were your supervisors?

MR. KUFRIN: Starting out, my supervisor was Dick Tolsman, then Rick Schultz and

most recently Greg Brown. There was Dick first, then Rick and Then Dan Stennant and

then Greg Brown.

MS. NORTON: Did you ever feel that there was a major impediment to your job or to

your career?

MR. KUFRIN: Only that the FWS at times worked very slowly and didn’t always have

the money that was needed to accomplish what I wanted to do for a project. I’d have to

wait for allocations from Congress, or budgets. At times it seemed like things went slow.

MS. NORTON: Who were some of the people that you knew outside of the FWS? Did

you feel that they would have been able to work for FWS?

MR. KUFRIN: Tom Landwehr for one, he could have worked for FWS. He was just a

wonderful young guy. He’s with Ducks Unlimited. I think he’s the Conservation

Director for island Minnesota. No! Pardon me! He currently works for the Nature

Conservancy. Roger Peterson worked for Ducks Unlimited. John Snyder lives in Alec

and is with DU. We did a lot of work together for MWA. I was the editor of that

magazine for about fifteen years. I have had a lot of work with them, not only through

magazine, and projects and individual chapters but also with the Duck Stamp program.

They helped with the State duck stamp program and that was always interesting.

MS. NORTON: And since you are all more or less striving for the same thing they feel

pretty much the same, even though their job in not with the federal agency.

MR. KUFRIN: You betcha!

MS. NORTON: Smart people!

MR. KUFRIN: Very intelligent people! We want to do as much as possible for the fish

and wildlife resources in Minnesota, our region, and the surrounding states on the upper

Midwest. That’s first and foremost. The dedication of these people is just absolutely

incredible.

MS. NORTON: Whom do you feel were some of the individuals who helped shaped

your career? Like in Region 3, were there names of people that you heard a lot of who

just seemed to be striving to get the FWS up a bit?

MR. KUFRIN: Jim Leech was one, and Greg Brown. There were so many, Steve Wyles.

All of those folks up there work so hard and so positively.

MS. NORTON: Do you remember who was President, or Director of FWS when you

came to work?

MR. KUFRIN: I think Frank Dunkle had just left. Jim Watt was in there too.

MS. NORTON: I think when I ask these questions I should have the answers written

down some place!

MR. KUFRIN: As far as President it was Ronald Reagan.

MS. NORTON: Steve, you know Jim Leech is here with me today too, and he has a

couple of questions to ask you that would help round out this interview. It all relates to

how you felt about working with FWS and what you saw and accomplished.

MR. LEECH: I think it’s really to our benefit Steve, for you to document and give us a

perspective on what you see that’s changed in the Waterfowl conservation world from

when you left the military and began working at Benson and then coming to work with

FWS who is responsible for waterfowl conservation nationally. We’d like to know what

your perspectives are for the future of waterfowl conservation. It would be a value for us

get an idea of what you see that the future holds.

MR. KUFRIN: Well, I’m very concerned about the future for waterfowl. Probably not

so much geese and ducks. I know when I was a kids we always said that the skies are

black with ducks. As kids we had big imaginations too, but it seemed that there were

many, many more waterfowl at that time. When I look back at all of the family

scrapbooks of parents and relative and friends with big bags of mallards, redheads and

canvasbacks, that’s something you just don’t see now. Maybe that’s good too. I don’t

think we need that many birds in our freezers. But from one who loves to eat waterfowl,

it’s a wonderful experience to be able to go out and shoot a few; clean them and throw

them in the pot or throw them in the oven for three or four hours and savor the smell of

fresh duck, oh boy! There’s nothing better. But since I’ve gotten out of the FWS, the

situation hasn’t gotten any better. I remember when I was in the military and writing to

my Dad, he told me that there weren’t any more pheasant out here, and this was in the

early 1960’s. He said that there were just a very few pheasants left. I wrote him back

and asked him what the problem was. He told me that we were loosing all of the grass

out here! I got out of the military in 1965 and there were virtually no pheasants

anyplace. That was one of my first lessons. You have to pay attention. Of course, he

was out in the country all of the time being a Veterinarian and he noticed things like this.

I then started to pick up on these things. Drainage and grassland destruction has still not

ended and you wonder if it’s ever going to. It still continues. The situation is much

better because of the various programs that have been instituted now for landowners but

gosh, there has been so much destruction that I wonder if our waterfowl resource will ever

catch up. Especially some of the critical species; they are economically important like

Canvasbacks, redheads and mallards. My brother and I have gone to Saskatchewan since

1969. When I first started going up, I was just amazed at the number of ducks we saw up

there, even compared to Minnesota. And there were still a lot of ducks in Minnesota at

that time. Since 1969 the numbers have plunged up there too. Their drainage and

grassland destruction had been very forthright and it continues. The number of birds that

I’ve seen in Canada is certainly not like it was in the late 60’s and early 70’s when I

started going up there. My brother was up again this year. I think he said he’s been up

24 years and he said that it was the worst hunting he’d ever experienced up there. It was

the worst number of ducks, or the lowest number of ducks that he had ever seen since he

started going up there. He said there were geese all over. And by geese, he meant white-feathered

geese and Canada geese. He said that the Canada and the snows and the white

fronts and the blues were just thick. So while the geese are doing pretty good the ducks

are still having problems.

MR. LEECH: What’s the answer? What do we do in the future to reverse this problem?

MR. KUFRIN: Well, it’s definitely tied to agriculture practices like drainage and

plowing, and getting in the fields early when some of the early nesters like pintails are

sitting on their nests. They are coming in with their discs and drags and working the

ground getting ready to plant. The birds are either displaced or their equipment is

destroying the nest. But how do you tell landowners that they can’t do that on land that

they have to put into production? Especially when it’s good land, and I’m not talking

about poor land. I don’t know how you’d convince them, unless Canada goes to a WRP

program or a CREP program or something like that in the future and able to tie some of

the lands up there. It would be a big help to some of the duck populations, but until that

happens I think our duck populations are going to go down. I think we definitely have to

get a handle on predation too. I’m very concerned about waterfowl predation; coons. I

had never seen opossum when I was living down in Benson. Then I came out here and

now they are very common, as are the coons. I think we’ve got to get a hand on some of

the predators. And I think we at least have to get the FWS and the DNR conservation

organizations to sit down and discuss these issues and that hasn’t happened. The only

organization that has tried to deal with predation is DELTA. They’ve got a lot good

work and studies out there. I think we’ve got to get on that predation problem.

MR. LEECH: Can you give some of your perspective on some of the things we, as the

conservation community need to do to engage the political members who can change

agricultural policy and land use decisions. As you mentioned, agriculture is the key to

reversing the trends in waterfowl. But what are some of the things that can be done to

reverse the trends?

MR. KUFRIN: I think what we have to do is work more diligently with our partners and

get them and their members more involved, and in the loop. We need to get their members

active on a more personal lever rather than just donations. I think that is vitally

important. There are so many people who are members who I think would be happy to

get involved. I think Pheasants Forever does a good job of that. You see a lot of

instances where there is a Senator, or President Bush was out there before the election at a

farm in southern Minnesota Pheasants Forever was out there with their national officials.

They are meeting with President Bush and some of the landowners out there giving them

the opportunity to speak. They were soliciting input and ideas. I think we’ve got to get

people more involved. That’s easy to say, but actually getting them involved is the

difficult part, but it’s imperative. It’s always nice to send in twenty-five dollars for a

donation but when you start pushing dirt of planting native prairie, it doesn’t go too far.

It’s better than nothing.

MR. LEECH: Well I appreciate your perspectives. I think it was valuable for you to

share them.

MR. KURFIN: I wanted to mention something too Jim, about the agencies and the

predation issues. I am very concerned about predation. I think we have a severe problem

and I don’t know if we’re ever going to get a handle on that because of the “anti’s”. But I

think we’ve got to deal with it.

MR. LEECH: Well, as you well know, one of the ways we’re dealing with it is to have a

block size of our land mass greater, so that we get the large cannids to wipe out the little

egg suckers.

MR. KUFRIN: I know it has been successful because I’ve talked to people from

DELTA and gone through some of their sites. I’ve gone through Morris WMD and

talked to trappers out there. One of the trappers in the spring told me, “When they

asked me to start trapping I never thought there would be enough animals to keep up with

the trapping. But I am simply amazed with the number of predators on the land!

There’s no way we can keep up with them!” There is that many! I think Al Radke had

asked him if he was worried that some of his fall income would be taken away because

there would be less critters to trap in the fall. This fellow who is a trapper said,

“Absolutely not, you couldn’t dent the predators in one spring out here. It has to be a

consistent effort.” He said that there were more animals out there than he ever thought

possible. I think the trapper was from Blenwood, or Bruton, or Hancock or someplace

like that. But he seemed real honest.

MR. LEECH: Those are good perspectives.

MR. KUFRIN: Yes, and I think we have to take all of the angles into perspective and

that’s the only way we’re going to get ahead of this wreck right now. I’d sure like to be

able to go back out there and see flocks of canvasback coming in to Holleburg Lake or

Lake Hassell or Lake Moore where you’d see flights of 40 or 60 coming in. And

Redheads with their wings ready to knock your eardrums out with their rushing sound.

And ringnecks and scop. I can remember some of the hunts that we had in Saskatchewan

that were just absolutely incredible for canvasbacks. A friend of mine and I decided that

we were never going to have the opportunity to have a good canvasback shoot. We were

born too late for that. We said that this fall when we went up to Saskatchewan we going

to pay special attention to see if we couldn’t get in a good canvas back shoot on one day

on Little Quill Lake. It was a heck of a job. We had to pull the boat out with my wood

decoys and the guns and shells and all the gear. We had to pull the boat about 250 yards

over the meadow grass first to get it to the waters edge. Then we had go through the mud,

then some solid stuff to get out to the bull rushes in the northwest corner of the lake. But

there was canvasback out there. We had gone out and scouted a couple of days. This

friend and myself went out and in two days, we shot two limits of drake canvasback.

And we didn’t shoot a hen, nor did we have one cripple. The dog picked up all of the

birds. We shot a couple of geese during those days too. It was just the most incredible

hunting experience I’ve ever had! I would certainly hope that some younger people will

have the same experience some day. But I don’t know if they will just because those

habitats have disappeared up there so quickly. The predators have become so ingrained

up there. We never saw a raccoon when we first started going up in 1969. I don’t

imagine the first one we saw was until probably 1975. After that it just seemed like they

took off. And skunks, fox, crows and ravens are bad too.

MR. LEECH: I’d like to interject a little historical perspective about your two-day limit

of drake canvasbacks. Having hunted with you in the past, and knowing how you shoot,

the only way that you could have gotten two limits of drake canvasbacks was to let those

birds land in your decoys and then shoot the drakes.

MR. KUFRIN: Hey, they were right over the decoys! Stevie Sureshot! That’s about

the time we first started using steel shot. We were among those who were not reluctant

to use steel shot too. We found that steel shot was just as effective and just as deadly as

lead shot.

MR. LEECH: As long as you let the birds come in.

MR. KUFRIN: Yes, and we were very proud of the number of birds we retrieved and did

not loose with steel shot. But these were wonderful shots. It was small bunches of one

to five. We didn’t shoot any thing over six in a bunch. If there were hens in there we let

them go. We were just shooting drakes. That was it.

MR. LEECH: That was a very memorable hunt, I can tell just from listening to you tell

about it.

MR. KUFRIN: Yes, it was! Absolutely incredible. I fried my camera in the alkaloid

water. I bent too far over. My camera just exploded. I was never able to get any photos

of the results of the hunt, or even of us out there that day!

MR. LEECH: Well, you’ve got drake canvasbacks hanging out your auditorium here that

are living proof of what you did.

MR. KUFRIN: That’s right.

MR. LEECH: Well thank you, I wanted to capture those sentiments.

MR. KUFRIN: No, thank you.

MS. NORTON: What was the high point of your career with FWS, if you had one?

MR. KUFRIN: Just being able to work with biologists like Jim who are always so

pumped up about doing what’s right for the resources. Just having the opportunity to go

in to work each day and be associated with gentlemen and gentlewomen like Jim who

show that conservation means so much to them. It’s really a pleasure.

MS. NORTON: Did you have a low point in your career?

MR. KUFRIN: Yeah, finding out that I couldn’t go back to work after discovering that I

had a brain tumor.

MS. NORTON: We’re sorry about that too. But as you progress, maybe you’ll still be

able to do a few things.

MR. KUFRIN: Oh, I hope so.

MS. NORTON: Did you ever have a really humorous experience while you were with

FWS?

MR. KUFRIN: Oh, I’m sure because the people were so decent to work with.

Everything was always pleasant.

MS. NORTON: Did you every have a dangerous or frightening experience out in the

field?

MR. KUFRIN: No, I really wasn’t out in the field that much. It was much less than I

would have wished to be. But I guess they felt I was getting a few things accomplished in

the office and that’s where they wanted to keep me.

MS. NORTON: What would you like to tell other people who don’t work for FWS

about your career?

MR. KUFRIN: If they would ever want to encourage their children or anybody else to

go into conservation, I would certainly encourage them to consider applying with FWS.

It’s just a top-notch outfit with top-notch people. There is a lot of honesty and common

sense. I’m always heavy on those too. That makes me so proud to see these folks who

are playing with the taxpayers money who have all of this honesty and common sense. I

think they are doing the right thing with those dollars. I think that’s wonderful.

MS. NORTON: Do you have any photographs or documents that you would like to

donate or share with the Archives?

MR. KUFRIN: I’ve got so much stuff. A lot of my writing is in the MWA magazines.

But lets go through the tapes. Thank you it’s been a real pleasure getting to know you,

and Jim, it’s been a pleasure having you too.

MS. NORTON: No, it’s I who really want to thank you!