Bruce Conant oral history transcript

              Oral History Interview with Bruce Conant

May 22, 2006

Roger Kaye, Fairbanks, AK

RK -- … This s an interview with Bruce Conant, Fish and Wildlife Service waterfowl biologist, who’s retiring this year; it’s May 22, 2006; this is Fairbanks, Alaska; and I’m Roger Kaye with the Arctic Refuge. Well Bruce, thanks for conducting this interview with us. I’ve been looking forward to this for a really long time. We’re going to talk about your career with Fish and Wildlife Service -- flying the Waterfowl Project. But first, I’d like to ask you to tell a little bit about your early history: where you grew up; where you went to school; and what lead you to Alaska.

BC -- Ok, Roger. Well, I grew up on a small dairy farm in southeastern Michigan. and maybe one of the things that might relate to what I’ve been doing the last 30 some years is, I went to a one room school there -- which there aren’t a lot of anymore -- we had a very interesting teacher in the sixth grade that wanted us to learn about aviation. So, she had us all make models of airplanes. And I may have not known it at the time, but I made a model of a Cessna float plane ...

RK -- Really?

BC -- … of all things.

RK -- Was this a balsa wood and paper …

BC -- Yeah.

RK -- it wasn’t the plastic type?

BC -- Yeah. It was all just a pile of wood and tissue paper …

RK -- Did you have rubber binder propeller?

BC -- Yep. And then we, as a class, did projects to make money. And then all got to fly -- we only made enough money to fly one direction -- where we got to fly into the state capitol, Lansing, on a … might have been a … I can’t remember what kind of airplane -- DC3, or maybe the one after that. But anyway – a propeller airplane.

RK -- Yeah.

BC -- And then rode a bus back.

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BC -- So maybe that had something to do with my thinking about airplanes.

RK -- Interesting. What year were you born, first?

BC -- I was born in 1945.

RK -- ‘45. Ok. And were there any childhood books that influenced you in terms of wildlife or aviation?

BC -- Well, I can’t think so much of books. I mean, I read some of the like [Jack London? indecipherable], and maybe Robert Service poems. And I remember, in high school, we used to go a little lunch counter, downtown by the drug store, and then I’d look at the magazine rack, and found a magazine called Alaska Magazine, so I started thumbing through that. And I was interested, of course, in the outdoors, growing upon a farm in [indecipherable]. Fur, Fish and Game was another magazine I discovered.

RK -- really?

BC -- And I looked at that and …

RK -- Well, that’s an interesting commonality. So many people that get into wildlife read that as a kid; and I did.

BC -- And then of course, the little advertisement in the back about North American School of Wildlife and Forestry -- or whatever it was. ‘Become a game warden in the wilds of wherever’ and ‘ anybody can do it’ and ‘give me some money’ …. But, anyway …

RK -- Did you enroll in it? Or you just kind of …

BC -- I just …

RK -- … read it?

BC -- … read it, and noticed that. And, but, anyway, when I graduated from high school I was going to go off to college, so I went to Michigan State University, and I found out about this -- it was called ‘fisheries and wildlife degree’ then; I’m not sure it’s the same, but anyway, ‘wildlife management’ it’s called in a lot of schools. So I enrolled in that, and completed my degree there in ’67. And the last year, I managed to find a job in Alaska, working for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game as a … first in counting salmon on a salmon stream at Bear Lake, Alaska, which is out on the Alaska Peninsula. So, of course, we flew all day … I did, all day, to get to Alaska, and landed at Kodiak and spent the night … well, now, I think it was about two nights, ‘cause the weather was bad. And then got flown out to Bear Lake in a Grumman Goose by … what was his name … ‘Dave somebody’ … a famous, at that time, Goose pilot, who wore the French beret. And we landed at Chignik I remember, ‘cause the weather was bad. And so we spent a few hours there, and

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then finally took us the rest of the way. And then I worked there all summer. And then a guy named Marve King, who actually came from Michigan, got his license in Michigan, was flying a Super Cub, bringing us our mail every two / three weeks. So, it was pretty obvious that aviation was a pretty important thing in Alaska. So, I got more interested … and to back up a little bit -- I was interested, so I did get my private license with the flying club at Michigan State University. So I did have a private license when I went there that summer.

RK -- What kind of plane did you learn in?

BC -- A Cessna 150.

RK -- Oh, yeah. Early one, must have been.

BC -- Yeah, early one. And I remember we took off on a grass strip, Davis Field, just north of East Lansing, and one of those deals. When you make that first take off you can … most people can usually remember it. Pretty neat experience. Well anyway, I finished up that job. And I had one more quarter to finish for my degree. So I did that. And, of course … well, I had a job lined up to come back and work for ADF&G, a permanent job with the fisheries department in Kodiak. And then the Vietnam War was going pretty hot and heavy … and people were subject to the draft. So, I decided that I didn’t want to take a chance on … even though I wanted that job in Alaska … to come up and then get drafted out of it. So, I decided to try and get something positive out of the military. And so I wanted to join the Coast Guard and their flying program. But they only had a class every six months, ‘cause Coast Guard is a small branch of the military. So I ended up joining the Navy and learning to fly … continued to learn how to fly in the Navy. So, I did that for three years.

RK -- And what did you fly?

BC -- I flew the T-28 and S-2 tracker in training; and then was stationed on a target towing, or target squadron, that provided target surfaces for the Navy. So, we had the T-28 to simulate, like, close air support, and then we had the S-2 to tow targets for ships to shoot at. And then I was training in the P2V, which carried miniature airplanes under each wing that they could fly remotely, which is what we do nowadays, over in Iraq. But, that was the early days of that sort of thing. So … and then, because the Vietnam War was winding down, they were offering early outs. So I volunteered for one of those, and got out of the Navy in 1971. And went back, briefly, to the farm in Michigan. And then, because of my interest in Alaska, I decided to drive up the Alaska Highway and look around. See if I could find some means of employment. And I remember I stayed at the old [indecipherable] Hotel in Anchorage -- 32 bucks a week. [laughter] And other people were there, young people looking for adventure in Alaska, and employment, and so forth. So I traveled around Alaska. So, I remember I went to McKinley Park, Denali Park, and drove up to Fairbanks, and wandered around on the road system looking for [indecipherable]. And

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let’s see, I took some tests try to get into the Flight Service Station employment. And, I went and visited the Regional Office. I remember I went in and talked to Dave Spencer.

RK -- That’s Fish and Wildlife Regional Office?

BC -- Yeah.

RK -- Oh, Dave Spencer now, he was what … Chief of Refuges?

BC -- I suppose he was Chief of Refuges then, yeah. It wasn’t the old downtown office, but it wasn’t the new one now … somewhere outside of town. And the reason, I think somebody tipped me off that Mel Munson was the guy I needed to talk to. So I … anyway, I went in and Mel wasn’t there at the moment or something, I remember I talked to Dave for a little bit.

RK -- Tell me about Dave Spencer … what was your impression of Dave?

BC -- Well, yeah, Dave … a real … how would you put it … slow talking Dave. But a real, you know, like a perspective on Alaska. He’d been around a while, and knew things about Alaska that … at a deeper level than somebody just talking about geography [indecipherable]. But then, eventually, Mel did show up, and I went in talked to Mel Munson. Mel’s … maybe a bit the other direction: real energetic and overflowing type personality. And so, I … you know, they were … they said there were some possibilities that job sometime in the future maybe, and to stay in touch. And so, I think right after that … well, I got my float rating there at Lake Hood, because I had the GI Bill. And it was in the fall I remember – September / October, somewhere in there. And I got in touch with the FAA folks, and they offered me a job as an air traffic controller, sitting in front of radar screens all day. And I said, ‘naw, I really wanted to … if I was going to do that, I wanted the Flight Service Station job out in the bush somewhere. Well, they didn’t have anything, so …. Then, this guy that I was rooming with there, he was an instructor actually were I got my float rating, and he decided around about Christmas to head south. So I went down with him, ‘cause it didn’t look like anything was going to happen through the winter, so …. He lived in San Francisco area, so I went down there for a couple of months. And then I went back to Michigan in the spring. And I was thinking ‘well, probably things aren’t going to work out in Alaska’ …. So, I had worked in summer job with the county road commission. So I called them up and said what possibilities are with them. And they said ‘yeah, you can come back to work for us.’ And they had me driving a dump truck there. And so … then, out of the blue, Mel Munson called -- about end of March or so, and ‘well, we got this temporary job in Fairbanks, with fisheries department,’ or in fisheries work, with the predecessor to Ecological Services, which was River Basin Studies. So, I told them I’d think about it. So I had a permanent job in Michigan and I had this temporary job in Alaska. And … discussed it with my folks. And I remember my mom said something about ‘well, you know, it’s not a permanent job, but it’s, you know, in something you’ve studied in school

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and, you know, it might just work out, and you ought to give it a try.’ So, anyway, I decided to come up and take this temporary job in Fairbanks. So, I worked at that for a couple of months. And then Mel called up and said ‘well, we have this permanent job in Juneau.’ And then, of course, you know, about my pilot license, I think, you know, that’s something Dave and I discussed, and Mel and I discussed, the previous summer. And I’m sure that’s why I got hired, ‘cause it was hard to get jobs in those days.

RK -- Now what year was this -- ‘72?

BC -- This would be ’72, yeah. Spring of’ 72. So … and they said ‘we need you to go down to Lake Hood and get checked out on this Beaver’ -- Standard System Beaver – ‘that we’re going to have stationed in Juneau.’ And so … I remember I asked if I could take the train down and [they] said ‘well, it’s kind of unusual, but, yeah, we can do that, government will pay for it.’ So, I remember taking the train down. And it was just … all day trip. So then I showed up at Lake Hood, and found out about the Fish and Wildlife Service Aviation Division, which was run by Theron Smith then.

RK -- Yeah, tell me about Theron Smith.

BC -- Well, one interesting story I know about Theron, with me, is that after I got trained and people said I was okay to take the Standard Beaver down to Southeast …

RK -- Now, you just had a private license at this time?

BC -- No. See, because of my Navy experience … I don’t know how it is now, but then, you could go in and take a 40 question, written test. And if you passed, with the FAA, being a military pilot, they would give you all ratings that you had in the military.

RK -- Oh, I see. Ok.

BC -- I got the commercial, instrument, and multi - engine.

BC -- Because I passed that test. Because of all my training.

RK -- Ok.

BC -- Yeah, I had the ratings, and I had just barely had a float rating, so I was covered there ‘cause it was a [indecipherable] . But anyway, I was going to take this Beaver off to southeast, and so Theron called me into his office and we sat there and talked about how flying would be in Southeast. And I remember, you know, he was very similar to the way Dave Spencer would just sit down and slowly, calmly, talk about, you know, their experience. And, you know, he was telling me, ‘you know, some days it’ll be like a mill pond down there, flying around Southeast, but other days you better know what you’re doing, and sort of ease into it, don’t tackle anything too tough to start with, and talk to all the people you can that have flown around down there, and get to know the country.’ It

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was good advice, and the way he delivered it was, you know, this is what I really ought to pay attention to. Not somebody, high flautin’, flying off the handle, and, you know, a showman - type pilot that’s trying to impress you. You could tell he was somebody that was speaking from lots of years of experience.

RK -- Now was he a Service pilot? Was this before OAS?

BC -- This was before OAS. And Theron was the Aircraft Division head. And that really was … goes back to Clarence Rhode, who was the Regional Director, who I never met because he got killed before I showed up on the scene. But, according to the stories of Jim King and others, it was Clarence’s dream to have an aviation division and because he was … I don’t know if he was then, but he was going to be the Regional Director, he hired Theron Smith to create this aircraft division for him. So, it was really Clarence’s idea, but Theron’s baby, in terms of making it all happen. Something I heard on the radio not too long ago about it -- it’s easier to come up with ideas but it’s harder to get somebody to make them all happen. So, yeah, that’s my most memorable experience with Theron Smith. And that was the fall that Begich and Boggs were lost.

RK -- Oh, I see.

BC -- And so, they said, yeah, it probably was Theron said, ‘by the way, on your way down, why don’t you look,’ ‘cause I was going down the coast from Anchorage to Juneau. And that was the route they were going to take. ‘Keep your eye out for anything that looks, you know, like an airplane.’

BC -- And, I remember the weather was a little crummy, so … I stopped in Cordova and spent the night. And Chuck Evans was there with a Goose, and he was doing the official search for the Begich and Boggs wreak. And so, I had supper with him that night and he gave a few pointers about flying. I remember one thing he said was … you know, I’d just come through Portage Pass and he said ‘ah, you know, that can be pretty crummy.’ It was a nice day when I came through Portage but … I remember him saying that ‘Portage Pass is only open for me if I can see water on the other side coming through [indecipherable]’

RK -- Oh, yeah?

BC -- Just because … ‘it’s supposed to be open; if you can’t see the other side, don’t go through there,’ so …. Anyway, I continued on down the next day with the airplane and was stationed down in Juneau, with the Standard Beaver. And Mel Munson was a builder, which was what Theron Smith did later, talked about Clarence Rhode being a builder, you know, build up the program, and that’s what set me off, Mel was into building up the program in Southeast [indecipherable] . There were only two full time ES people, or River Basins people when I showed up there. And Jim King was there with a Waterfowl Project. And Fred Robards and Sid Morgan were the law enforcement / eagle people then. So, it was Mel’s idea to station an airplane down there and hire a pilot / biologist. And then

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shortly thereafter, he got a 65 foot “T” boat the – Curlew -- which is a sister ship to the Surf Bird, which was already there with the eagle project. I got drafted that December, I guess it was, of that year, to be … well, the newly hired Ted Estrada was the boat skipper for the Curlew, and the Curlew was the Cripple Creek at that time, and in Kodiak the [indecipherable] Fisheries Service boat that was being surplused. So, they needed some crew members to help bring this across the Gulf. And, so Ted -- the skipper -- went ahead to Kodiak to get the airplane ready. And George Putney was running the other sister ship -- Aleutian Tern, out in the Aleutians, out of Kodiak. So he was going to be the other skipper helping Ted. And, because I and Don Ross, a newly hired … Mel Munson newly hired pilot / biologist … we’re pilots, obviously we knew how to steer a ship and maintain compass course, and so … we were drafted to help bring this boat across.

RK – So, Don Ross was down there in Juneau, then?

BC -- Don was in Fairbanks. And you should, at some time … some point, get him to tell about how he got hired. I think he got hired a little after me, and he got hired to work out of Fairbanks with [indecipherable].

RK – Ok, yeah.

BC -- And … but anyway, he was onboard and we were both pilots so [indecipherable] this trip. And as it turned out, we lucked out with weather. It was like a four day trip, and the roughest part of the trip was coming up Lynn Canal, and in the dark, and 12 foot seas or something. But, we were headed straight into them, so, it was pitching instead of rolling. But the Gulf was almost calm. I mean, as calm as it ever gets -- especially that time of year, so ….

RK -- Did Jim King help you flying? You’re a new Service pilot; new to floats; did he check you out, and give you advice?

BC – Yeah. We made one trip, I remember anyway, but … and probably it was a Theron’s urging to, you know, make a trip with me. You know, he pointed out some things he knew about flying in southeast. Jim had flown a little bit -- not as much as like, Al Krup -- was a guy that flew a Goose in Southeast in the summers and worked as a mechanic in the shop there in the Fish and Wildlife in the winters. And I remember talking to him quite a bit, ‘cause he was in the shop there and [indecipherable] just retiring, and he told me a lot about some things about flying in Southeast, and … careful about pulling up on beaches. I remember him saying, you know, just because it looks good don’t just put your wheels down and pull up there. You should be sure you get out and walk around on it before you pull an airplane up on a beach. I learned from the local people where to beach an airplane and where not to. Yeah, Jim’s experience, which was really later helpful to me, was flying around all of Alaska, because he had vast experience with the whole countryside.

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RK – Well, Bruce, several years ago, at an OAS meeting that we had, I heard you talk of your ‘trail of mentors.’ Maybe this is a good point in time to talk about that and … that you developed ….

BC – Yeah, well, that’s what Jim King pointed out to me, somewhat [?] more than once, but anyway, at least once, that I was a product of a ‘trail of mentors’ and himself being in the trail. And I said … that’s when I had been flying with Jim on the Waterfowl Project for a couple / three years maybe, but … and, you know, really, you have … experiences that I’m passing on to you were passed on to me, and you should know your trail of mentors. And that is: “I” – being Jim King – “learned from Ray Wolford,” a ‘management agent’ I guess they were called in those days, here in Fairbanks. He was the Head of the station here, and, you know, Jim said “I made trips with Ray when I was just learning to fly, and not even handling the controls, but just watching him make decisions. And then maybe I’d fly the airplane back into Fairbanks” after they’d done the patrols. And Ray had learned from Clarence Rhode, who was a well known bush pilot before he became well … even more well known as the Regional Director of the Fish and Wildlife Service. And Clarence Rhode had learned from Sam White. And he was the first person to use an airplane -- certainly in Alaska, and maybe the whole Service -- in the Fish and Wildlife Service. And Sam White learned to fly from Noel Wein. So that goes back to the 20s. And like I think I said in my meeting speech, that Noel Wein learned it the hard way – by … on his own. But anyway, those things learned were passed along, and then, I like to think that I passed some of those on to Jack Hodges, who had a wonderful career as a pilot / biologist with the Waterfowl Project and just recently retired.

RK -- And now you’re teaching Ed Malack.

BC – And now Ed Malack is going with me, and I’m trying to pass on a few things I know. Because he’s going to start, you know, doing this Waterfowl Survey that I’ve been doing since ‘78. And I just mentioned to Jim King the other day that, you know, this mentor apprenticeship idea is something that is really important, and it’s bigger than aviation. It’s especially important in aviation. But like I told Jim, I learned to drive a John Deere tractor from my dad. When I was five years old I would stand between his legs and get to drive the tractor coming up the field. and the older I got … I could I remember my dad said “well, when you’re 12 years old and you can” … you had to start it by swinging the fly wheel to get it started, so … “when you’re old enough to swing the flywheel, you can take off and do … work with the tractor on your own.”

RK – Yeah, well, maybe ask you to talk about the big Waterfowl Project that you’ve been involved in all these years. And I believe that’s where I first met you in 78, in Fort Yukon. You and Jim King were doing the Waterfowl Survey and I went up to Old Crow with you and did the Crow Flats. And it was with the Beaver. I think you were just learning from Jim at that time, weren’t you?

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BC – Yeah, I had just taken a position, working with Jim on the Waterfowl Project. And before that, I was with Ecological Services. I flew the Standard Beaver for three years there, and then found out about the Flyway Biologist Program, which is the counterpart to the Alaska Program, but for the whole continental U.S. And, so managed to find a job down there. And I worked down there for two years.

RK -- Where’s down there?

BC – In the Lower 48.

RK – Oh, okay.

BC – Six months at Laurel, Maryland, which is where most ‘trainees’ as they call them, start out. And I flew with Art Brazda up in northern Canada. And he was stationed in Lafayette, Louisiana, and I eventually went down there and worked with him for a year and a half. And so, that’s where I really learned a lot about the Continental Waterfowl [Program ?] and how to do ariel surveys for waterfowl, although I had made a trip with Jim while I was still at Ecological Services. He was up here doing his … this Survey I’m doing right now. And I met him here in Fairbanks and he said “well, why don’t you come up to Yukon Flats with us” and Dan Tim was with him - the State Waterfowl Biologists, at the time. So I went along in the backseat and saw a bit of how they do it. And then, of course, talking with Jim in the office there, I got interested in waterfowl. But anyway, that’s how I sort of got into it. And then when I … in Louisiana I had the opportunity to come back to Alaska, because they had two positions -- one here in Fairbanks working on NPRA [National Petroleum Reserve Alaska ?], and the other one in Juneau working directly with Jim. And Rod King was hired for the one here, and I was hired for the one working with Jim.

RK -- I see.

BC – So I just had started in February of ’78. So the ‘78 spring survey when I met you; that was my first spring survey.

RK -- Tell us about the extent and the purpose of this Waterfowl Survey. It’s across Alaska, right?

BC – Yeah. Well our part … it’s across North America, actually, and our part is the Alaska … mostly Alaska and the Old Crow Flats and the Yukon Territory. And this is the 50th year of doing this survey. And people like Cal Lensink were involved early on to help design it. And, you know, the history of it is that, actually, Dave Spencer worked as a Flyway Biologist down south, he and [indecipherable]. They didn’t call them Flyway Biologists at the time, I think it was actually on a refuge in Florida, but he was involved in early work on the Prairies, in the late 40s, to develop an area system for counting waterfowl. And, like Jim King likes to say, Dave, because of his forestry training, is the guy that came up with the segmented transect sampling system. Which was developed, and eventually turned into

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this continent-wide survey that’s done every year, this time of year. And Dave Spencer flew the first México surveys. And then, I’ve heard Dave say he got a chance to come to Alaska, and it didn’t … didn’t take him very long to make that decision, and came up. And I think that’s when [indecipherable] the Kenai Refuge. But, he did surveys out on Yukon Delta, the first surveys for waterfowl out there with an airplane, and wrote a paper -- Alaska’s Greatest Goose Nesting Area. And then, I think it’s probably Clarence Rhode that had the idea to have a Waterfowl Project, per say, in Alaska. And he found and hired Hank Hansen in the state of Washington -- he was the State Waterfowl Biologists [indecipherable]. Anyway, he came up and started the actual Waterfowl Project, in Juneau, which some people don’t realize used to be the Regional Office of the Fish and Wildlife Service. So, Hank got the project going and established this survey as part of the Continental Program. And I remember Jim was working as a Game Agent here in Fairbanks at the time, when Hank showed up, he was using Game Agents to fly him around various parts of the Survey, and Hank announced, after a couple of years, that he was going to do the whole thing himself, ‘cause he was a pilot. He was a World War II pilot. Jim said the old time Game Agents sort of scoffed at this idea that … you could not count on flying around Alaska, in three weeks, without running into major weather problems, and getting this whole thing done. And Hank went off and he did it. And then, he did it another year. And Jim says the Game Agents said ‘well, only this time of year could it possibly be done.’ And that’s why Hank’s been able to do this, so …. Anyway, that’s how Jim sort of got involved in the Waterfowl Project, working with Hank. And then, when Hank decided to go down to the Lower 48 and run the Continental Program, they lined up Jim to take over …

RK -- I see.

BC – … and follow.

RK -- Now when did the Turbine Beaver come into this Project?

BC – Well, Jim used a number of airplanes through the years. And then I think it was about ’64, the Service picked up some surplus Beavers from Davis Monthan Airforce Base, which was a graveyard of military airplanes. And Jim was one of the pilots that flew them back. And Theron and Jerry Lawhorn went down there and un-pickled them, got them ready to go, and Jim flew them back. So Jim flew the Standard Beaver, I think for 9 years, on this Waterfowl Survey, and he took some notes about the things he didn’t like about the Standard Beaver. And Jerry Lawhorn, who was the Chief of Maintenance, and a superlative mechanic on his own, but especially a good manager of people and mechanics [in] particular, took some of these notes to heart. And they had … one of these Beavers they specially set aside to not use on regular work. They just parked it, or kept it somewhere in a hanger, and with the idea that someday they were going to make it a turbine airplane. And so, when that time came along, which actually followed … the Grumman Goose came first -- they converted a regular piston powered Goose to the turbine power. And that’s

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because of a trip that Theron made with a congresswoman who was running a committee back in Congress that controlled the purse strings. And the story I heard was, they were stuck on a lake out in Bristol Bay somewhere and she needed to get to Washington to vote. and Theron said, in a way he could say really well, was ‘well, if I had some turbine engines I could climb off this lake and you’d be in Anchorage in an hour and a half, but because I don’t, we’re going to sit here in the fog and rain and…. ‘ But, anyway, she remembered that. And when she got back to Congress, she put a little thing in the budget for the aircraft division. And that kept coming year after year. And, so that’s how they converted the Goose. And they wanted a spare engine for the Goose, and that was the third engine, and Jerry Lawhorn said ‘well let’s not just put it on the shelf, let’s put it in a Beaver and make it work. And if we ever need it for the Goose we can go get it and put it on the Goose.’ And that’s why it’s got the long skinny nacelle, ‘cause that’s what’s on the Goose. And, as it turns out, it works out really well for us, because it gives a superlative forward visibility, because you can see right alongside the engine forward. So that happened in … 1972 was the first year it flew -- April of ’72, a company called Volpar, which has since gone out of business, in Van Nye, California, put the engine on. And Jerry went down there and did some of the test flying, and flew it back to Alaska. So, that’s how it got started. And then, you know, I had seen it when I had first shown up, it was sort of in pieces in the shop, and was interesting looking airplane. And Jim, I think, pointed out that it was going to be used for waterfowl survey work eventually. And then, I’ve heard Jerry tell the story that he went with people like Jim and watched what they were trying to do with an airplane, and tried to design into the airplane … in other words, try to make it simple to operate, because the pilot is spending a lot of time looking outside the window for waterfowl. For instance, Jim, with the old Standard Beaver, had Jerry move the warning light right up here by the post, instead of down at the bottom where it normally is.

RK – Oh, I see.

BC – So, if you have low fuel pressure, this light came on right by your eyesight, and by your line of sight. And so Jerry, when he built the Turbine Beaver, put all the enunciator lights - as they call them - right up on top, where they could immediately catch your attention if you’re looking outside. So, those things are all designed in there. And then in 19 … you know, I got in on the tail end of the Fish and Wildlife Service Aviation program. Theron was retiring, and I remember asking him about what was going to happen in our little discussion there. And he said ‘they’re talking about this Interior consolidation.’ He says, ‘I think it’s going to happen.’

RK -- That’s OAS?

BC – And that’s what turned into OAS.

RK -- That’s the Office ….

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BC – Office of Aircraft Services, which managed all the Interior aircraft. And then … so … I was flying the Standard Beaver then. And times were changing. And Jim was going to start using the Turbine Beaver, and did. It made trip of [?] Bartnik … Jim Bartnik, to look at lands for what eventually turned into what were called D2 lands then, but eventually turned into … some of the lands turned into new wildlife refuges, so … he was looking it over with Jim and writing up proposals. And Jim was, you know, supposed to start using it on the Waterfowl Survey. But, because of this Office of Aircraft Services, and the fact that this airplane does not have a certificate of airworthiness, that bothered a lot of people. So, the airplane was not in flyable shape, and it didn’t look like they were going to put it into flyable shape. So, it just sat parked there at the old Fish and Wildlife Aircraft Division yard. And Hank Hansen, of course, who was … had been the Project Leader in Waterfowl, wanted this airplane to be used. And Hank was, at that point, Deputy Area Director, under Gordy Watson, so … the story is that Hank went and talked to the OAS folks and said ‘well, if you’re not going to fly the airplane’ and it was the one airplane that OAS didn’t take over ownership of, I think because it was un-certificated, but anyway, Hank said ‘if you’re not going to fly it, I’m going to send that airplane down to the Lower 48 and they could start using is down there.’ Because OAS started in Alaska, and it was not going much in the Lower 48, at that time. So, anyway, that must have embarrassed some people, because pretty soon we started to fix it up. And in 1977 Jim flew it, with Jim Bartnik, on this Survey for the first time. And they did the whole trip with the airplane. So this year, in 2006, is the 30th year that that airplane will have made this trip around Alaska and up to the Old Crow Flats.

RK -- How many hours does it have on it, doing this? Do you know?

BC – Well, it’s somewhere between 12 and 13 thousand hours on it -- since they put a turbine engine on it, so …. And well, of course, there’s other work that’s been done with the airplane, not just this survey. But this survey takes about 100 hours, so …. That’s … over 30 years that’s 3000 hours of flight time.

RK – Yeah. Let me ask you, when Fish and Wildlife Aviation Program went to OAS, was that an improvement in efficiency, or safety, do you think? Or not?

BC – Well, it was confusing, because, part of the history of it is that … there was a counterpart to Fish and Wildlife Aviation in Alaska at that time and that was the BLM -- Bureau of Land Management program -- which focused a lot on fire fighting and …. But, when OAS -- Office of Aircraft Services -- happened in Alaska, they had an administrative set up, and the Regional Director was … because Theron Smith was retiring, it wasn’t Theron. And I forget the person’s name, but the person was Bureau of Land Management … took over. Well, as Andy Andersen, the … actually was a boat skipper of ours in southeast Alaska for many years -- recently died, but he used to work as a mechanic in the

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old Fish and Wildlife Service Division, in the winters, and he was still fishing … or driving a fish tender out in Bristol Bay, but what he said was, you know, the history is that whatever Fish and Wildlife did -- BLM thought was wrong. So they did things they way they should be done. Like, for example, the Grumman Goose that was converted to turbine power by Fish and Wildlife -- we put Garrett engines on. Theron did. Well, BLM had Pratt Whitney engines -- the PT6 -- and that was the way to go. So, what we did was wrong. So, same way with the turbine diesel. That was a mistake. That shouldn’t have happened. So, there was … that happening; that they were out to change things, or at least not have them go the way they had been going with Fish and Wildlife, so …. And then, some of the people I remember that I got check rides early on with were ex-military pilots. And they didn’t know a whole lot about what we were doing with airplanes. Or how we did it. And then … so that was … and they didn’t show a real interest in trying to learn what we were doing. And … think that has improved over the years. But, like Jim’s has pointed out early on there, I remember, there’s a saying ‘you can’t serve two masters.’ Well, it put pilots in an awkward position -- because we worked for the Fish and Wildlife Service, but the Office of Aircraft Services was handling all the aviation part of it, so …. We did a check ride with them, and they, of course, over the history, have been coming up with more and more … I won’t say restrictions, but hoops you’ve got to jump through, to be able to fly. And the … for instance -- an instrument rating was one thing that happened early on. That all pilots had to have an instrument rating. So, Jim went off to Ohio, with Don Fortenberry, who I just met three or four weeks ago at a retiree thing back at NCTC -- National Conservation Training Center -- they went off to Ohio and got trained up to get an instrument rating. And like Jim said, that’s the only instrument flying he ever did -- was to get that rating. And came back and did his flying the way he knew to fly around Alaska. Which is what he passed on to me. And, you know Ave Thyer, well … and Ave was a person that was … at some point decided that he wasn’t going to go that route, and did not get the instrument rating. And then eventually quit flying. And that was a loss -- to my mind, and Jim’s, and others -- to the Fish and Wildlife Service, because he was an extremely competent, safe, pilot, flying in the Arctic Refuge, knowing the country and knowing how to fly safely – vfr, and marginal vfr, or special vfr [visual flight rules].

RK -- 7000 hours he had too. Never an incident.

BC – Uh hum. But it’s a different perspective on what the flying is. And, certainly there’s new tools that have come along -- like GPS, that’s a major global position system is what they call it. But the satellites that really are a help in the taking some of the worry out of getting places, but …

RK -- I want to talk to you about some the improvements, or innovations, in technology. But first let me ask you, how many hours have you accumulated flying with Fish and Wildlife Service in 30 years?

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BC – Well, let’s see. I think I had about 900 hours when I came to work for the Service, so …. I’ve got a little over 9000 now. So, there’s a little over 8000. And over7000 of that is in this turbine airplane ...

RK – Oh, really?

BC – … the Beaver, so … It is, by far, my favorite airplane, and the one I know the best.

RK -- Did you ever have an accident or incident with it?

BC – No, I never have. Not yet.

RK -- Well time is running out ….

End of Side A

BC – Anyway, we had just finished the survey and we were going to get fuel there in Gulkana, and then you make the last … just cross-country leg into Anchorage and land at Lake Hood, and thinking about … we’d like to do a little celebration there at the end, but, I started the airplane up after we fueled, and I went to move the power lever, and it was just loose -- like nothing there. And finally shut down and discovered it wasn’t connected up front anymore. And the mechanics came up the next day from OAS to fix it, low and behold, in the bottom of the nacelle there was a cotter key. And it had just backed off at that moment. When you think about all the times when you had the power back coming down a hillside at a hundred feet, and you went to put the power in, and it fell off then -- that could have been a bad scene.

RK – Yeah.

BC – So … that’s one close call. I’ve only had one forced landing. That was with a piston [indecipherable] Southeast Alaska there. And the valve axel had fallen out of the engine -- [indecipherable] engine, and it was back [indecipherable] and it was … still fly a little bit. And that was over salt water so it [indecipherable] and it was not a big deal, but ….

RK – Well, Bruce, you’re … in the Fish and Wildlife Service, you’re certainly a legend. And I’ve known you from all these OAS meetings over the years. What would you tell Service pilots? What’s most important? Say a guy’s going to start flying for Fish and Wildlife, what’s the most important advice you could give?

BC – Well, looking on my career, the most important factor to me, in helping me learn to fly around Alaska was working directly with Jim King for 5 years. And now, that’s probably an extreme, but … certainly some time with experienced pilots that know their way around.

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And, you don’t even have to have hands on the controls. If you can sit next to them and watch them make decisions in difficult situations. And, that’s why I think, you know, I like some of what’s going on with the current program, which is termed ‘mentoring’, but to me it’s more like training. It’s in short periods. And, I think you need to … I would like to see a year overlap between every pilot that changes in the Fish and Wildlife Service so you can spend time -- a significant amount of time -- to get to know the person, and get to know how they operate. Not that you’re exactly going to follow everything they do, but you’ll have the benefit of how they do it, and …. I think Don Ross is another example, and [indecipherable]. And that’s … quite a bit about how it’s done down below, in the Lower 48, with the Flyway Biologist Program, where they do these waterfowl surveys across the continent. They typically put new people with experienced ones, and have them fly together for a while. And, that’s a tried and true method. And then … I don’t know … certainly these new tools are nice, but you need to learn how … pilots, I think, need to learn how to make 180 degree turns. And don’t just assume that, you know, everything’s going to work just right and you can push on, because you have an exact position, and you know exactly where you are. Because, you know, that’s … that equipment can fail at times, and ….

RK -- You’re referring, like, the GPS …

BC – GPS.

RK -- … navigation? You think pilots are tempted to go beyond where they would have, just for that security?

BC – I think there’s that temptation. You have to be careful of, anyway. You can fly safer, I think, as long as everything’s working, like, the Turbine Beavers [are] set up with a moving map, thanks to Jack Hodges. And that’s a program we use to record waterfowl, right into a computer, by position. But it also has a moving map function, so you can see yourself fly down these lines, that we’re doing, like on the survey. But, there all are USGS 1 to 250 scale maps, so you can get really detailed information on where you are, and how to fly around … especially like, Southeast, along coast lines. You can see exactly the track of the airplane along the coastline. And if it all goes to pot on you, you can turn around and fly the straight line back out.

RK -- Back out.

BC – So that’s helpful, and comforting, as long as everything’s working. But, don’t fly way into bad weather thinking ‘well, I can see that I’m right here’, because, maybe you’re not right there. And maybe, worse yet, somebody is doing the same thing in the opposite direction.

RK – Yeah. Any other advice you’d give a pilot?

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BC – Oh … um … when you’re starting out, you know, approach it slowly, and cautiously, and sort of feel your way into it. You know, like the advice Stan gave me, and Jim, and others, and … probably goes clear back to Noel Wien, don’t make the most difficult trip right off the bat. And then, the older you get flying, I think you tend to fall back on that, too, because you’re physical abilities are not as sharp as they used to be when you’re starting out, so, you, like an old basketball player or whatever, draw on your experience to make the trip, and do things safely … not your physical abilities.

RK – Well, we talked about technology a little bit, with the navigation stuff. But how about in terms of the Waterfowl Survey. It kind of came into the computer age during your tenure, didn’t it. How’s that changed the Survey, and the nature of biological work?

BC – Well, that … yeah, that all happened in my day. You know, when I started, the Selectric typewriter was the top of the line, for what we used to call secretaries. And … when I started doing surveys with Jim King, we actually used an old Dictabelt, about that size. And I had learned to use tape recorders in the Lower 48, so then we moved to that technology, after I started. And … but then the computer age came along and …. Well, for instance, on this survey … and we’re still using the paper maps that I did -- and Jim before me, and Hank before him -- where you navigated holding the map in your left hand, and fairly precisely, by watching lakes and hills and rivers and creeks, to navigate down these lines, while you’re counting ducks and talking into a tape recorder. Well, now, we have the moving map right in front of us on a screen, that’s got the line on and has got the airplane track going down the line. And we’ve got the GPS, CBI [Computer Based Instruction ?], I’m not sure what that stands for. But, anyway, just like a VOR, you fly this line with this [indecipherable] off to the left that shows you immediately. And can fly precisely down that line. So, and talking my birds into a microphone, like a tape recorder, only every time you push the button we get a GPS position attached to it. Well, this is all thanks to Jack Hodges, who worked with me and recently retired. And among his many talents is he is a computer programmer. And he programmed this all to work, over a period of time. But … and it’s being used across the continent now, by all the survey crews to navigate with, and to also record ducks by its position. And that gives you, you know, with the GIS capabilities you can do lots more with the waterfowl data than just … there are so many ducks between these two points. You have positions, so you can draw nice density maps and so forth. And have waterfowl by species. So it’s taken a load off the pilot, especially, on these surveys, because you don’t have to pay so much attention to exactly where you are. You can spend more of your time looking out the window for waterfowl. And that, of course, anything you might run into at that 150 feet. And so it’s improved both the safety and the … oh, the comfort of the pilot, and your less fatigued, which is a safety factor, and you’re …. But, yeah, that’s all happened in ….

RK -- In your career.

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BC – Our careers … the whole computer industry …

RK – Well, the computer technology aiding the survey design and implementation, and navigation equipment, is just wonderful. And we wouldn’t want to go back. But has anything been lost in terms of the nature of flying -- the skills that pilots, today, that are coming up, that may not have, that you had when you started?

BC – Yeah, I would suppose. I’m not sure how pilots are trained now. But if they go immediately to GPS, and don’t learn how to navigate on maps, especially USGS scale maps, you learn a lot about the countryside just paying attention to river drainages and placens, and, you know, part of the history of Alaska, really. So, if you just are worried, or pay attention to how to get to a place, without enjoying the ride or smelling the roses along the way, maybe something has been lost. And, like I said, if it all quits, don’t just … you don’t have to just give up. People have learned to get around the country with maps for a long time.

RK – Well, there’s a few other surveys that you’ve done besides the big one that we’ve talked about. Maybe you could mention a little bit about the trumpeter swan surveys and your Mexican surveys that you did.

BC – Okay. Well, the trumpeter swan survey was actually started by Hank Anson when Mel Munson officially described trumpeter swans in Alaska. And there some sporadic records. But Mel Munson actually measured some eggs on the Bremner River, up the Copper River drainage, and wrote a paper, and proved that they were trumpeter swans. And Hank got a program going with Pete Shepherd to study trumpeters there. And Hank organized a survey to try and count them. And trumpeters, at that point, were considered … they weren’t actually on the threatened species list, but they were considered in short supply. And the only ones known down below were at the Red Rock Lakes Refuge. And, so Hank did the first one. And then Jim King, in 1968, under Hank’s encouragement, developed a more comprehensive attempt to try and count all of the trumpeters in Alaska. and then, based on the results of that survey, which was actually a census the way it’s done, it’s flying back and forth across all the habitat, looking at every possible wetland there -- creek or drainage -- where trumpeters might be found. And swans show up fairly well from air, so it’s a really good count. But based on the results of that, which were a little less than 3000 swans, the Service breathed a sigh of relief on the status of trumpeter swans [indecipherable]. So, somewhere along the line after that, it was decided that every five years we would do … try to do a North American wild count, with Alaska having the biggest proportion of swans, in the summer, as a major part of that. So that’s been done every five years since. And we just completed [indecipherable] the last year in 2005. And, because trumpeter swans are increased dramatically, it’s taken a bigger effort to get it all accomplished. Like, in 1975, Jim did almost the whole thing himself, with another person in the airplane. And since then, we’ve relied more and more on refuge folks to help out,

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and … oh, the army helped a few years. And the Forest Service does, down in Yakutat [indecipherable]. And so, that’s a major effort that’s accomplished every five years. And, because of the computer age, all theses swan locations, originally put on USGS maps by hand, were all but into a computer. And now we actually gather the data in the computer in the airplane. And so it’s all managed with a computer system. And that’s a major survey of Alaska. And another one I’ve been doing since 1982 every year is the México / West Coast Survey. And I started that when I was actually with the Flyway Biologist Program down below, and when I got to Alaska, somewhere it was decided that I should stay involved in that. And eventually when Dwayne Norman retired I started being the lead person on that. So I’ve been doing that every year.

RK – Now, do you fly the Beaver down for that?

BC – In 1986 we took the Beaver down for the first time. And we’ve used various amphibians, like 206 and 185, previous to this. And in ‘86 we took the Beaver down. And I think it was one year after that we didn’t, but then every year since about ’88, I think, we’ve taken it down do the survey. And I like that airplane because it is so unique. It’s noticed wherever it goes. And has various nicknames -- a common one up here in Alaska is ‘Pinocchio’ because of the long nose. But anyway, in México they call it the ‘Grande Mosquito’ ‘cause it looks like a proboscis sticking out there. So, it’s been helpful to me, and because it can be a bit complicated flying in México, all the people that, you know, the formality of flying down there. But when they see that airplane, ‘oh, you’re back again.’ Makes it easier going through Customs. But because black brant -- now pacific brant they’re called, most of them do spend the winter in México, that’s where we get our biggest … our best count of the population of brant -- the west coast brant. And, so, that’s the major focus -- to do it every year. And every third year now, they send other crews down to México and they count other species as well – ducks, geese, and so forth. And then, this last year we did a pioneer survey, with a fixed wing airplane, up in Nunavut, which they have been …

RK – Now, that’s in Canada?

BC – In Canada, central Canadian arctic, Victoria Island specifically, is where we went last year. And for a number of years [Ray Alassascus ?] with the Canadian Wildlife Service has been doing helicopter surveys up there. But, because of the increased cost of helicopters, Tim Moser with the Migratory Bird Program in Denver asked Russ Oats, my boss here in Anchorage, whether he would be willing to try to do something with a fixed wing airplane. So, Russ asked me if it … could try it. And I said, yeah, I’d give that a try. So, last year was the first time we went up there and did it. And Fred [Rutger ?], who was in Louisiana with a pilot / biologist program, went with me. And, as it turns out … I didn’t want to do it in any other airplane but the Turbine Beaver, but as it turns out, when we arrived there, we found out there were only four drums of av gas there. And they get their fuel once a year, down

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the Timber River and across, when the ice is out in August, so … we couldn’t get anymore av gas for a while. But, you could pull up to the pump and get turbine fuel all day long. So, it was that factor, and then, of course, the increased safety of the turbine engine, and going into unfamiliar territory. And it’s a good example of … even though I have experience in Alaska, it was a different place. And I was fairly cautious about, you know, the weather and so forth. But it’s a really interesting place. For instance, there’s a lot of musk ox up there. And it’s treeless. And there are a lot of ice, because it’s just starting to turn into spring and melt out, so …. coming over lot of rock outcrops, and coming over a rock outcrop and looking down on this scene with musk ox and ice and … you know, it was kind of like the Ice Age -- when you were going back in time.

RK – Oh, neat.

BC – And we have plans to go back this year again.

RK – Alright. Well, not related to flying, but I do want to ask you about ANLCA. You were in Alaska during the contentious ANLCA period -- arguments over the Alaska Lands Act. What involvement did you have, and what memories do you have of that conflict?

BC – Well, I don’t have a lot of memories of it. Oh, you know, what I read in the papers and stuff, about the conflict. But, I think one important factor to keep in mind is Jim King and Cal Lensink’s contribution to establishing a lot of the new refuges. And a lot of the information used for the refuges that are primarily waterfowl refuges, came directly from this Survey that were doing right now. So, it’s been our benefit of this long term data set on waterfowl. And of course the Rampart Dam controversy, before ANLCA, on the Yukon Flats, put a lot of focus on the importance of northern areas to waterfowl. But, one interesting thing to me was after the new refuges came along, an early, brand new, shiny Refuge Manager showed up in Alaska. And, this is after Dave Spencer was … let’s say encouraged to retire, the people running the refuge operation at the time were … didn’t have near … didn’t have anywhere near the experience Dave had with Alaska in general -- and refuges specifically. So, it was [indecipherable] … it was interesting, because on this spring survey we do, we stop at a lot of the refuge locations. And, it might not have been the first year, but the second year coming around, it was … people … the refuge managers made it known that we want … they wanted to see Jim or I when we came through. and I remember we took … I can’t remember the manager now … at ANILCO … was Ed McGrath … Phil Feger, and we took him to the refuge -- the first time he’d been to the refuge, and he was the Refuge Manager for a year there -- and hadn’t even been to his refuge, so …. And others, I remember, I didn’t say it per say, but I think what came through to me was -- they were not getting any direction out of the Regional Office on what they should be doing out there. What’s important? What’s happening in Alaska? What are the issues? And, I mean, they knew what they’d read, and what encouragement they got from the Regional Office, from my perspective, was ‘well, make sure you get this report done on time, get this 19

so forth and so on.’ And the thought occurred to me that, if Dave Spencer had been there, he would have set a … quite a bit different tone about how to get started. And, I think my experience is … feeling is that, eventually they all figured it out on their own, or taking with other people. And Jim, of course, had a lot to say about it, because of his vast experience. And so, anyway, that’s my perspective on that. and the only other thing I regretted at the time, I went to [indecipherable] project leader in those days, and all the new managers were called in, Wheeler called in two at that time, and they went through a lot of hashing over budgets and stuff, but, the thought occurred to me ‘well, you got to take a picture of all the fish managers ‘cause you got them all here together, and some time, you know, it’ll be important.’ But I didn’t mention it. And I don’t think it was ever done. But, I don’t know for sure. That would have been nice to have had a picture of all these first managers of the new refuges.

RK – Well, Bruce, we’ve talked about your flying and your career, but one thing we haven’t covered is your family. I know you have a life outside the Service and it … you’ve talked about ‘duck widows.’ Tell me what’s a ‘duck widow’ is.

BC – Well, first -- I did get married in Juneau. And I met my wife in a dentist chair actually, in Juneau. She was a dental hygienist. So we got married in Juneau, and then, shortly thereafter ….

RK -- And what year was this?

BC – This would have been ’75, September 6th. Which I usually get reminded that I’m gone at the time when our anniversary comes around -- like last year. But, anyway, off we went to this Flyway Biologist Program down south in Laurel, Maryland, and then Lafayette, Louisiana, and back. And in Lafayette I met a gentleman named Johnny Lynch, who was a legend in waterfowl circles. He was with Dave Spencer in the 40s there, laying out the all the Continental Survey Program with airplanes. And he’s written a lot of really interesting stuff, some of which was … one of which was read at this retiree thing just recently -- two/four weeks ago. But, anyway, I made a trip or two with him, looking at geese. Where we developed a system to age geese from the ground with binoculars, by watching them. Johnny is just a wealth of information, you can just … if you could soak up a tenth of what his brain used to have in it … He’s since passed on. But, one thing he used to always talk about is ‘duck widows.’ And what he meant was ‘yea, you guys …’ and, of course, this was a different time, but … the guys would go off to Canada and have fun all summer learning how to count ducks, and of course living it up in the institutions [indecipherable]. And the wives were left at home holding down the fort, raising the kids. And so he called them ‘duck widows.’ So, he made a really good point, that, you know, that’s a part of the Service that needs to be recognized. And, when I came to work for Jim, I mentioned this ‘duck widow’ story, and I remember Jim said ‘oh, we got to do something with this’ so, we made up little certificates. And we had a little party at his house, and presented them to my wife,

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Sue, and to Jim’s wife, Mary Lou, who, over more years than mine, Sue had, at the time, been at home. So, that … and … well, it’s a different time now. And some … we have some women pilots, and so, it’s not just women spouses, it’s …. There are men spouses now, too. But, somebody has to … if you have a family and are raising kids, somebody needs to be around to help raise kids, so …. And like Jim pointed out, you need to be at a certain comfort level when you take off to go do this concentrated work. We have to concentrate on the flying and the biology and getting the whole thing done. You cannot be having a lot of concern about how things are back home: are they the family safe, are the getting along okay. And that was a big factor in Jim’s thinking, and mine too, about not moving out of Juneau, because that was a place where, we felt, our families were comfortable and could get along well without us for a period of time, so …. Anyway, I think that’s probably true of other parts of the Service, not just the Waterfowl Survey Program. But, we were gone for [indecipherable] longer periods of time. And, so, that’s something I just wanted to bring out.

RK – Well, how about catching trumpeters and the birth of your first daughter?

BC – Ah, well, that was another story about having an understanding spouse because our first daughter was scheduled to arrive in … oh, late … mid to late August. So, we had been taking birthing classes, where I was planning to be the coach and …

RK – Oh, yeah.

BC – … how to do a natural childbirth.

RK – Oh, really?

BC – So, Bill Sladen, who was another character that Jim knows really well and I got to know, he was a doctor at Johns Hopkins University with a strong interest in … particularly swans, and did some work with Jim early on. He is … came from England and has an English accent. Anyway, he had arranged to get some swans for the Moscow Zoo. So, we borrowed the Standard Beaver -- Piston Beaver there in Juneau, which was still there at that time, and went off to Cordova to catch these swans. And I had never caught swans. [indecipherable] how to do it. So, we went up the Bremner River to Pyramid Lake and … caught some swans, and got the airplane stuck, and learned about how to un-stick a Beaver, which was no big …

RK -- Was it in water that you got it stuck?

BC – [indecipherable] on a little sandbar. Not a big problem for Jim, [one thing pilots indecipherable ? ] know how to do, is how to un-stick airplanes. Just because you get an

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airplane stuck doesn’t mean you’ve got to call in a helicopter. And, it’s another example of making the flight plan maybe a little longer than just exactly when expected to get back. Anyway, we got the airplane unstuck, and we got these swans back to Cordova, and were going to take them back to Juneau to ship to Moscow. And we were going to accompany Sladen to [indecipherable]. So, [we] were sleeping in the Forest Service bunkhouse and early in the morning, I don’t know, five or so [indecipherable] but [indecipherable] who is another interesting character who worked for the Forest Service, and whispering ‘your wife is going to have a baby [indecipherable] Juneau.’ Slowly … I’m coming to here and, oh, my wife is having a baby. Uh oh, I’m supposed to be there. So, and then this story was told at Jack’s retirement party [indecipherable] my wife’s [indecipherable]. But, anyway, so, I needed to get to Juneau. So, I call up Alaska Airlines, which was the only airline flying out of Cordova. Well, yeah, we got one flight today, but it’s full. And there was no chance of getting on -- there’s a long waiting list. So, the only option is to fly the Beaver down to Juneau. So, we load the swans into the Beaver -- four of them in the back -- and Jim and I and Bill Sladen take off and go down. And it’s good weather as far as Yakutat, but the forecast was kind of iffy going into Juneau. And we refueled at Yakutat, and checked on the weather again at a Flight Service Station [indecipherable], the weather looked pretty crummy on the coast. And there’s two ways you can go to Juneau from Yakutat. And one is what we called the ‘back doorway’ which was up the Alsek River and the hills to Haines and [indecipherable] passes and down Haines and then down to Juneau. So, it looked like the coast, which was down around Cape Spencer, was going to be socked in. And it’s just typically bad, if it’s bad -- its really bad, its expensive, so … Jim was flying, because I was I had other things on my mind. So we headed off up the Alsek River and going to Juneau with the swans and Bill Sladen. And I remember flying along, up the river, and we were just getting into northern British Columbia -- there were no swan records for that part of the world. And Bill Sladen, in the back, always the biologist, was looking with his binoculars, and he’s aware of trying to get to general because of my daughter being … well, we didn’t know it was a daughter being born at the time … was being born, so, he spots these swans down there and he says ‘I don’t suppose that we could pop down there for a view of those swans?’ And Jim was flying and I’m sitting in the right seat, and we just made like didn’t hear what he had said. Kept on flying. And got over the pass to Haines just fine. And coming down Lynn Canal the ceiling’s getting lower and lower and lower and lower. Pretty soon its fog right on the water. And it’s calm, because it’s foggy. So, Jim lands. And, we taxied through the fog, and down Lynn Canal, and then just a little ways down is Auke Bay, which is at the north end of the road system in Juneau. So we had an hf [high frequency?] radio, which we still have in the airplane, but … we called, and got ahold of [Mary Lou King ?] I guess, and it turns out Jack Hodges was at [Mary Lou’s ?]. and, so, we said we’re going to taxi in on the beach at the end of the road, if you could come out and get us, so … Jack drives Jim’s VW bus out into the road, and we pull up on the beach, and park the airplane, and take the swans out and put them in the hanger VW bus and all of us go roaring off to

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the hospital. And to my perspective, I arrived just right, because my daughter had been born three hours previous …

RK – Oh.

BC – … and she was just waking up from her first nap. And so, ‘ta da, here I am.’

RK – Oh, really?

BC – But from my wife’s perspective, ‘you missed the big event. You missed helping me have this baby.’ And … but, there’s a woman that helped her, that we knew at the time, there in Juneau. She’s since moved down south. But, she likes … she used to like to tell folks ‘well, I’m the father of the baby’, ‘cause she was there coaching my wife have the baby. And anyway, the end of the story is, my daughter … our daughters name is Tamera Lynn Conant. And the Lynn comes from Lynn Canal, which was where [indecipherable] born.

RK – Oh, great story. Yeah. Well, gee, Bruce, how about … that’s the questions I had. And I thought we’d conclude by … I’d like to ask you … that, looking back, what would you like to say about your long career with Fish and Wildlife Service?

BC – I guess I would say I’ve been very fortunate … for a person like me to have ended up in a place doing the kind of work I’ve been able to do the last few years, and …. It’s not … I suppose like a lot of things, it’s not something that was planned to happen that way. It just sort of happened by a series of circumstances. Like I often think back -- well, what if I would have taken the job driving this dump truck -- how different my life would have been. And if I hadn’t a gone to Juneau and met Jim King and got interested in waterfowl work …. What Jim called it at Jack’s retirement … somebody ask him about his work in the Fish and Wildlife Service, ‘cause he still worked and was rehired [indecipherable] … Jim said ‘well, I work construction’ or something ‘one summer and then discovered the Park Service. Worked one summer there.’ And said ‘I really haven’t worked since then. I’ve had this fabulous career.’ And that’s sort of how I feel -- that it’s been a privilege to be able to work in Alaska, and know the people I’ve got to know. And certainly, from a flying perspective, for me, personally, flying the Turbine Beaver has been the ultimate experience for me … flying the kind of flying I like to do. So, yeah, and being involved in the Continental Program, and then being fortunate to have Jack come along and …

RK -- Jack Hodges.

BC – Jack Hodges. Bringing us into the computer age. And being part of that program that’s being used across the whole continent now, and other parts of the world even. Jack and I were -- Jack certainly the bigger part of it, but I like to think that I contributed some, in that, he would come up with computer programs and I, being a computer illiterate -- barely literate now -- would take them and go try to do something that he designed

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[indecipherable] to do, and then pretty soon I get the computer confused and locked up. ‘Jack, you got to program it out so I can’t do that.’ Like, for instance, we used to have a thing where you could save [indecipherable] but you push the wrong button it would just delete everything you’d just collected. And so, I said, ‘no, you’ve got to have it so you push it once and then it says ‘do you really want to do that?’’ So we’ve got those kind of things in the programs. ‘Do you do you really want all that data to go away?’ ‘No, I don’t want that to happen.’ Anyway, that’s part of that. And Jim was the same way over the airplane you know. That’s why the Turbine Beaver is partly right -- such a joy to fly. It is designed to be operated simply. Like Jerry Lawhorn was fond of saying, he said, ‘well I designed it to be biologist proof.’ So a person that’s doing other things than just the piloting can … make it simple, so you cannot make mistakes. And really, what he was saying was make it people proof, because pilots make mistakes just being pilots. Let’s make it the most simple and straightforward and easy to operate as you can. And, you know, Jim … Jerry was telling us this in front of a crowd or something, and he hesitated when said … he was going to say ‘biologist proof’ and Jim says ‘go ahead, say it. It doesn’t bother me. Now, if you said it … you’re going to make it ‘fool proof’ -- that would bother me.’ Anyway, I’ve had a wonderful career, and I … you know, it’s not an easy decision to retire, but, at some point, a younger generation comes along and they need to step up and be part of it, and hopefully have as wonderful a career as I’ve had. Hopeful that’s going to happen. Looks positive to me. and I think it’s worth trying to help OAS, which is now AMD I guess, learn more about what we do and how we do it and why we do it, and … so that they can maybe learn better how to help us do it.

RK – Well, gee, thanks Bruce. You know, in the 27 years I’ve been with the Fish and Wildlife Service, you’ve come by every year with the birds, and you’ve really become both an institution and legend. And a lot of us, who’ve gotten to know you over these decades, are going to miss you not coming by. Thanks for the interview and for all you’ve done.

BC – Well, you’ll have to come by Juneau sometime [indecipherable]

RK – Okay.

BC – Thanks Roger.

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