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Oral History Cover Sheet
Name: Carol Tovar
Date of Interview: March 7, 2005
Location of Interview:
Interviewer: Dorothy Norton
Approximate years worked for Fish and Wildlife Service:
Offices and Field Stations Worked, Positions Held:
Most Important Projects:
Colleagues and Mentors: John Mullins; Dave Gustafson; Mike Willett; Bill Anderson; John Christian; Gary Jackson; Charlie Woolley; Marvin Moriarity
Most Important Issues:
Brief Summary of Interview: Early years in Wisconsin – parents, play, schooling, moving to Twin Cities, etc.; military career – Woman’s Army Corps – radio communications – Vietnam War era; civil service job at Fort Ord, California, where 1st husband was stationed; meeting 1st husband; children; started with FWS in late 80s, retired in 2004; career in FWS; pay and benefits in government service; socializing with co-workers; starting GS and ending GS levels; starting with Contracting and General Services then moving to Finances; jobs and duties; supervisors; presidents in office during service; important people in the Service; NCTC; high point of career; low point of career; dangerous/frightening/humorous experiences; interviewers family history w/US Biological Survey.
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03/07/2005 Carol. Tovar
?? -- This interview will be between Dorothy Norton and Carol Tovar. Thank you.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, this is Monday, March 7th 2005. And Carol Tovar, I haven’t seen you now for … what, a month was your party?
Carol Tovar -- January 26th .
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Okay. Well, I’m glad you had the time today that we can do this. So first thing I want to know is your birth place and date.
Carol Tovar -- I was born in Stanley, Wisconsin, on December 27th 1949.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. What town?
Carol Tovar -- Stanley.
Dorothy Norton -- Stanley? Where is that?
Carol Tovar -- That’s in Clark County. It’s east of Thorpe, Wisconsin.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay. Okay. And so, what were your parent’s names?
Carol Tovar -- My mother’s name is Marge, and my dad’s name is Ray.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And what were their jobs and education?
Carol Tovar -- Education – minimal.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- Dad went through eighth grade, and Mom never made it to eighth grade, just through sixth grade, I think.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And my dad’s occupation was a truck driver.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay.
Carol Tovar -- And Mom was a nurse’s aid
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, wow! Busy with a lot of kids, too.
Carol Tovar -- Yes, six.
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Dorothy Norton -- So, how did you spend your early years?
Carol Tovar -- Early years was going to school, and I’d do babysitting. And, of course, it was the oldest of six kids there was always lots of chores to do. It wasn’t… we lived out in the country and there wasn’t a lot of opportunity for socializing. So, we always pretty much kept ourselves busy among all the kids.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. Okay. So, did you have any hobbies, or did you like reading, or any special things that you liked to do, like, if there were parades, or anything like that, or ….
Carol Tovar -- Back… back then, I don’t even recall ever seeing a parade when I was a kid.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- Um… we went to the County Fair once or twice when I was young. I played with my dolls; I had a record player. And we played games a lot, a lot of board games, and… and even outdoor games, like baseball.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- Sometimes, the other neighbor and farm kids would come over, we had an empty field …
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … next to our house, and we had our own baseball diamond out there. And so we just played baseball for hours.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good.
Carol Tovar -- And, of course, in winter time we had a hill, we call it the ‘barn hill’ and it came down from the hay mow, and it… we’d make a toboggan slide on that in the winter time and see how far our toboggan would go down the hill from the top.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, I bet that was fun.
Carol Tovar -- Oh, yeah. It was great,
Dorothy Norton -- So, other than babysitting… that’s the only job you probably had while you were in school.
Carol Tovar -- Oh, yeah, when I was young.
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Dorothy Norton -- You never had a paper route or anything like that?
Carol Tovar -- No. My brothers did...
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- … when we moved into the Cities, but not me.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Did you ever hunt or fish?
Carol Tovar -- Fish. I fish now. Hunting, I couldn’t do. The only hunting I’d do would be with a camera.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And it wouldn’t be out in the field when there’s guns being fired out there. That’s too dangerous.
Dorothy Norton -- Yes, it is.
Carol Tovar -- And so, but with a camera… I like to do my hunting with a camera. And fishing -- I… I just kind of recently learned how to fish. And I even went to a class… I can’t remember the guy’s name anymore, but he’s well known in the Twin Cities, I took a class from him, a fly fishing class.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh.
Carol Tovar -- And… and I have a rod -- fly rod. I… I’m not real good with that fly rod, but I do like my spinning rod. And I love to cast with my spinning rod. And the biggest fish I’ve ever caught so far was… was a northern, and that was up by Grand Rapids, and that was about… almost as long as my arm. We were fishing down beneath a dam, on the rocks, and I caught it there. And I didn’t have a net with me, so I… I got him out onto the rocks, but then he flopped back off into the water. And I… if I would have had a net, I would have been able to keep it, but he got away from me.
Dorothy Norton -- Then you… would have had it mounted, huh?
Carol Tovar -- Yeah, I probably would have. Yeah. Yeah.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, what high school did you go?
Carol Tovar -- I went to several high schools.
Dorothy Norton -- In …? 4
Carol Tovar -- In Wisconsin. I went to Coleman High School in Coleman, Wisconsin; I went to Abbotsford High School in Abbotsford, Wisconsin. And then we moved into the Twin Cities in 1967, as I was going to be a senior in high school, and I finished my last year of high school at Edison High School in northeast Minneapolis.
Dorothy Norton -- And what year was that that you graduated?
Carol Tovar -- 1968.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And so, did you go on then to college?
Carol Tovar -- No. I wanted to but
[indistinct talk and dog barking]
Carol Tovar -- Schooling didn’t come easy for me. I had to study real, real hard to maintain some decent grades. Learning didn’t come easy to me, let’s put it that way. And so, I worked really, really hard for grades. And in Wisconsin, both my brother and I were on the National Honor Society. When we came to the Cities, we took such hard classes that we weren’t able to maintain grades good enough to be in the National Honor Society anymore. But, I mean, we took tough classes. And I remember my toughest class in high school was chemistry.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh?
Carol Tovar -- And I did well in it, but that’s because I had to study hard. But I… that was the toughest class I ever took - was chemistry, I remember that. And, let’s see, I forgot where I was going here. We were talking about high schools.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- Umm….
Dorothy Norton -- And you didn’t go to college, but ….
Carol Tovar -- Not… I… okay, after high school, I did want to go to college, but because learning was so difficult for me I figured… and the other economic factor was, there’s no way my parents could pay for me going.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- So, I’d have to pay for my own way to go college, and it… as difficult as it was for me to learn, I didn’t figure I’d be able to study and work to put myself through school. Now, maybe at the time there was there was scholarships available, but my grades weren’t good enough to be able to get a scholarship. And if there were grants
5
available, or any other economic help, I knew nothing about them. So, my plan – B – was to go into the military. I figured I’ll lean a trade there.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And they’ll pay me. And I did learn a trade. I learned how to be a data processing equipment operator.
Dorothy Norton -- What branch of the service did you…?
Carol Tovar -- That was… at the time that was the Women’s Army Corps [indecipherable]
Dorothy Norton -- So, Army.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- And how many years were you in the military?
Carol Tovar -- Well, in the military, it didn’t last too long. I was in there a year and a half.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And that was during Vietnam.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- I didn’t get sent over to Vietnam, but I… I worked at Sixth Army Headquarters, in the Presidio, in California. And that was… being an Army Headquarters like that, I think at the time there was maybe only eight… eight – worldwide -- eight Army Headquarters.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And so, there was a lot of activity going on in each one of those. And ours was… I’m not exactly sure what our mission was there, but I do remember a lot… a lot of soldiers coming back from Vietnam to our… to our Headquarters
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
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Carol Tovar -- And so… and I talked to a lot of them, on the radio -- some kind of fancy Army radio – MARS… it was called a MARS Station. I don’t exactly remember what M A R S stands for anymore, but we talked to people all over the world, from our radio tower.
Dorothy Norton -- Humm.
Carol Tovar -- And I talked to… one of my jobs was to… the soldiers overseas would come to their communications tent, and they would… the operator would make… radio operator would make a connection with us on our radio in the states. And he would have a phone number where we could call the soldiers family. And so my job was to get on the phone, while I’m still on the radio, and call the soldiers family, and explain to them how they had to say ‘over’ when they were… when they were done speaking, so I could flip a switch and the other persons transmission could come through. So I had to listen to these phone conversations from overseas, from a war zone, and back at home, at the domestic….
Dorothy Norton -- Humm.
Carol Tovar -- And there were some pretty heart wrenching conversations I was privy to. And most of the time they’d forget to say ‘over’ because it was such an emotional communication. Then, I kind of had to use my own judgment to flip the switch so they could hear each other. So, that was about as close as I got to war, other than the people….
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … the other soldiers that came back and would tell their first hand stories, if they could. It… it was pretty tough.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- But… but I got experience working in a radio station. I also worked in personnel office.
Dorothy Norton -- Humm. Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And I worked in… in a… with a top secrete clearance, in a communications office. It was more than an office -- it was an operation.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- But… they were all messages from all over the world would come in and we would have to deliver them and get them sent out -- and absolutely not say a word about them.
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Dorothy Norton -- So, after you got out of the Army what did… where did you go… did…. wait a minute, before you got out, did you ever get ever any decorations or metals or anything?
Carol Tovar -- Just… just the normal ones, the… not anything distinguished, just for the units that I belonged to.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And for the years of service I was in.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, when you got out, what did you do?
Carol Tovar -- Then… I got out because I was pregnant.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh.
Carol Tovar -- At the time, that was an automatic discharge.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- So, I was… I was married, and my husband and I took an apartment in Mill Valley, California, that’s across the Golden Gate Bridge…
Dorothy Norton -- Huhm.
Carol Tovar -- … in Marion County.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh.
Carol Tovar -- So, we had an apartment there. And, my first child was born there - my daughter, while we lived there. And I came back to Minneapolis where my folks were, ‘cause he got transferred to another station, and I… me and my baby came home to live with my folks for a while. And then me and my baby moved back out to California where my husband was, at his new duty station, and that was at Fort Ord, California, down by Carmel.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh hmum.
Carol Tovar -- And we lived on base there, and I worked… I got my first civil service job at Fort Ord, California. I’d already taken the test -- the civil service test, in Minneapolis, before I went out to California. And then I got my job at Fort Ord, California, as a clerk in the food service office. And what that was, was there were about five… five military men who inspected all the mess halls, all the dining facilities…
Dorothy Norton -- Ahh.
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Carol Tovar -- … of the soldiers on post. And they’d bring back their reports, and I’d have to type up their reports, and send them out, and file, and answer the phone -- general clerk type duties. [Indecipherable] It was a good place to work. It was a nice operation.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So you’re telling me now, you were married, but I want to know now when and where and how you met your husband.
Carol Tovar -- When… we were… we were married in November 1969. I met him when we were both working at the presidio of San Francisco …
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … in San Francisco, while we were both on active duty. And we got married in Carson City, Nevada, …
Dorothy Norton -- Ohh, okay.
Carol Tovar -- … in November of 1969.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And so, you have one child, and, did you have any more children?
Carol Tovar -- Yes. Yes. We had two children… have two children, and they’re both grown adults now. And one… my… the oldest one is married and…
Dorothy Norton -- She working at all?
Carol Tovar -- Yes, she… she’s the Community Development Director…
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, that’s right, you mentioned that. Yes. Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … for the city of Burnsville.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- She’s doing very well for herself.
Dorothy Norton -- That’s good.
Carol Tovar -- She put herself through college, with student loans and grants. And, at the time, I was a single… single mother, so there wasn’t much I could do to try to help her through college, although I knew she was going to go.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
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Carol Tovar -- And that was her life’s plan, I mean, there was no option about it.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- So, we found ways to do it. And about all I could to help her was just to allow her to live at home while she was going to college.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- I… I couldn’t contribute financially at all…
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … so, that was my contribution.
Dorothy Norton -- And your son is Tom.
Carol Tovar -- Tom. Yes.
Dorothy Norton -- How old… what does he do?
Carol Tovar -- He’s… he’s between jobs right now.
Dorothy Norton -- Between jobs right now.
Carol Tovar -- He is… he likes to do a… laborer as a… working for a moving company.
Dorothy Norton -- Ohhff! Well, he’s a big boy.
Carol Tovar -- Yeah. He’s a big guy.
Dorothy Norton -- Must be strong.
Carol Tovar -- And …
Dorothy Norton -- Have a lot of patience.
Carol Tovar -- Well, patience he’s pretty damn short on.
Dorothy Norton -- Is he?
Carol Tovar -- Yes. Yes. But he is strong, and he knows what he’s doing.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good.
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Carol Tovar -- And, in fact, I’m in the process now of… of relocating, and he’s packed up pretty much most of my house on his own…
Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good.
Carol Tovar -- … and… and moved all these boxes to other storage locations for me, and… he’s a big help.
Dorothy Norton -- That’s good.
Carol Tovar -- Yeah.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, now, we’ll get to your career. Was there any particular reason why you wanted to work for Fish and Wildlife Service… or, how did you happen to come to us?
Carol Tovar -- Yes. For the… for the Service… I liked the mission of the Service, to… to protect the environment.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And, had I ever been formally educated, I think I probably would have become an ecologic… ecologircalist (sic?)…
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … ecologist.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- Ecologist. And I… I’m… I consider myself a nature lover. I like animals; I like plants; I garden as a hobby; I feed the birds.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- I love… I love seeing wild animals, and even animals in the zoos. I love watching the programs about them on television, and reading books, and looking at pictures. And I’m just a natural naturalist at heart.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good.
Carol Tovar -- And so, that’s why I wanted to work for the Fish and Wildlife Service – primarily.
Dorothy Norton -- So, when did you start the Fish and Wildlife Service? 11
Carol Tovar -- I started in the late ‘80s.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And, I retired from there.
Dorothy Norton -- Yes. December 31st of 2004.
Carol Tovar -- That’s right.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Okay. What had you done then after… before you went to work for Fish and Wildlife Service? Were you just staying home, taking care of your children?
Carol Tovar -- No. No. I… I’ve been working all my life. I… I said I got my first job at Fort Ord, California,
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … with the federal civil service, and I stayed with civil service my whole life.
Dorothy Norton -- That’s good.
Carol Tovar -- I did have a break there, when my second child was born, but then I went back. I joined the Army Reserves...
Dorothy Norton -- Ohhh!
Carol Tovar -- … after my second child was born. And I did that for about 10 years. And I also got divorced and remarried, in the meantime, in between there. And… but still working for the federal government. And then I… when I was working with the Army Reserves, I had an opportunity to get a full-time civilian job, which I did.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And that was at Fort Snelling…
Dorothy Norton -- Ohh!
Carol Tovar -- … with the Army Reserves there.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And I stayed working there until… let’s see, I started working there full-time … oh, mid ‘70s, I’d say.
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Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm
Carol Tovar -- Maybe around ‘74.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And then I stayed there until probably … about the mid ‘80s.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And then, from there I spent two years downtown Minneapolis, with the Agriculture Department, for two years.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, [indecipherable] okay.
Carol Tovar -- And then, I came to the Fish and Wildlife Service.
Dorothy Norton -- Good. Okay. So, what did you think the pay and benefits were, working for the government?
Carol Tovar -- We were always told that when… when we were sent fact sheets, and read fact sheets, that the pay was 30 percent below the comparable jobs in the area. So, I’ve always been under the impression that we’re underpaid by 30% of what we should have. And we’d been hearing from President Clinton on forward about the Pay Parity Act, and they always found something… some reason not to give federal civil service workers… not to bring them up. They always found a reason not to close that gap. And so, I wasn’t real happy with that. But, overall, I was happy to have a job.
Dorothy Norton -- So, did you have promotion opportunities though, when you started with Fish and Wildlife?
Carol Tovar -- No.
Dorothy Norton -- What did you start as… a GS…?
Carol Tovar -- I… I think… let’s see -- a 6 or a 7 -- a GS 6 or a 7.
Dorothy Norton -- And you retired at…?
Carol Tovar -- GS 9.
Dorothy Norton -- GS 9. Okay.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm.
13
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Did you socialize with any of the people that you worked with?
Carol Tovar -- Oh, not too much. I had one or two friends...
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, oh.
Carol Tovar -- … during the meantime. It’s… the… as difficult as it is for me to learn something, it’s just as difficult for me to make friends and trust people. And so… so, I’m… pretty much keep to myself.
Dorothy Norton -- I always thought you were friendly.
Carol Tovar -- Well, I try to be friendly, but I don’t trust.
Dorothy Norton -- [Laughter] Okay.
Carol Tovar -- And so I don’t say much either.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- So, I… I’m just a loner at heart, I think.
Dorothy Norton -- You are?
Carol Tovar -- Yeah.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, okay.
Carol Tovar -- Yeah, an introvert.
Dorothy Norton -- And what did you do for recreation in the field with any of the people that you worked with? I heard you mention bowling earlier.
Carol Tovar -- I was on the bowling league. Yeah.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh huh.
Carol Tovar -- And that… I guess, well, I attended some of the… some of the gatherings they’d have at work. And….
Dorothy Norton -- Uh huh.
Carol Tovar -- I kind of picked and chose among those.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
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Carol Tovar -- I can’t think of anything offhand. I… I made some friends now, in the building, from other agencies.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And I visit with them a lot, on break time and lunch time.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s okay.
Carol Tovar -- And that was enjoyable.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. So do you think your time with the Fish and Wildlife Service had any effect on your family?
Carol Tovar -- No.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. That’s good. So, you left the Service then when you were eligible for retirement?
Carol Tovar -- Yes.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, did you get any training when you came to work for Fish and Wildlife, in what types of job you were going to be in? Or did you know what you were going to be doing?
Carol Tovar -- Training was, I’d say, probably minimal… to be able to get the job done.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh hum. And what did you start in when you started -- what division?
Carol Tovar -- I was in Contracting and General Services.
Dorothy Norton -- ICGS, okay.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. As a… they had… I was doing kind of two jobs there. I was putting bid packages together for… for contracts that they would let, and I was also doing move management services -- coordinating peoples relocations to the Region and within the Region.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And then they… management created a job just for the… they wanted to move the … move… move management services out of Contracting and put in Finance, and that’s what they did. And I was lucky enough to be able to go with that.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
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Carol Tovar -- And then, I lost, of course, the bid packaging duties that I had been doing. But I gained some other ones. And I got a lot of experience in finance, because I was physically located there. And of course, then I had to do some work in finance too, financial type work.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And so, I learned a lot about finance and budgets there.
Dorothy Norton -- Did you enjoy the financial work?
Carol Tovar -- Yes!
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- I found it very, very detailed, which I don’t have a problem with.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And sometimes, it’d almost be like a mystery, trying to balance books and find that penny. And, by George, we’d find it too.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- It took some digging sometimes.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- But…
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … it’s there...
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- … and you can find it.
Dorothy Norton -- I know that I always liked a lot of things about office work, but financial stuff, I… I like working with numbers…
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- … and if I can’t get them to agree, either, too, it just seems like, okay, you have a puzzle, now you have to solve this.
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Carol Tovar -- Right.
Dorothy Norton -- And when you do, then you feel really good about it.
Carol Tovar -- Yup. Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. And I… and I like doing all the research some things would take, too, for reconciling the monthly budget records. Like, the print outs that we’d get from Denver might say something, but our [cuff ?] records would say something else. So then, you got to go back, digging in the record, and find it out,…
Dorothy Norton -- Right.
Carol Tovar -- … where the discrepancy is. And that can be real time consuming, and lead you to a lot of different files. And I like doing that kind of detective work, if you will.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- It’s interesting, I think.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. So, you just worked regular hours then, Regional Office hours.
Carol Tovar -- Right. Right. Normal 40 hour week.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Well, I did… when I was in Contracting, in the springtime, I’d do… I’d work every Saturday morning, because that was a busy time there, and I could get a lot of work done…
Dorothy Norton -- Uh huh.
Carol Tovar -- … on that one Saturday morning. Every Saturday, for about three months I would do that. I could get a lot of work done, getting caught up.
Dorothy Norton -- So, would you consider this job then, ‘bout relocating and all, would you consider that a project? It says, like, ‘what projects were you involved in?’
Carol Tovar -- Well, it wasn’t project. That was an ongoing… ongoing job.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Were there any projects you were involved in? 17
Carol Tovar -- Projects… well, we… when we got some duties delegated to us from Denver, we tried to develop some manuals.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay.
Carol Tovar -- And I was working on that project. Other… other projects… don’t… no other big projects come to… come to mind right away.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Any major issues that you had to deal with?
Carol Tovar -- Major issues….[chch chch – sounds/not words] I’d say not. No.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Yeah. That’s how it is….
Carol Tovar -- Not in the type of work I was involved in.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. That’s usually the manager type….
Carol Tovar -- Yeah. And… and the scientists.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- I could see where they could be involved in [indecipherable] things
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, when you started, who was your first supervisor?
Carol Tovar -- When I started at the Fish and Wildlife Service? My first supervisor was John Mullins.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And then as you progressed, who were your next supervisors?
Carol Tovar -- Oh, let’s see, as things switched around a little bit… Dave Gustafson became my supervisor, as they switched supervisory duties. And then, in finance, there was Mike Willett. And, after him… I’m… let’s see… was Bill Anderson. Bill Anderson came from Denver.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And then, I moved over to Fisheries and I worked for John Christian.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay.
Carol Tovar -- And he moved on to a different position, and replaced by Gary Jackson. And then, I went over to Ecological Services, and the ARD there at the time was Charlie Woolley. And he went on to a different job and was replaced by the ARD who’s there now, and her name is not coming to me exactly at the moment.
18
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. I don’t know too many of them anymore, either.
Carol Tovar -- I can tell you what it is when it comes to me.
Dorothy Norton -- Ohhff, that’s okay. So, you think that any of the friends that you have, or that you know today, would be eligible, and should be working for Fish and Wildlife Service?
Carol Tovar -- No.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And so, you remember who was president when you were working for us. You mentioned Carter before… I mean Clinton. (Dorothy, Dorothy.) [Chuckles]
Carol Tovar -- Oh, geez, I remember… in 1980, because I remember voting… the voting day.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- It… President Reagan was president from…
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- 1980 to ’84.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And I’m not sure who was in between… ‘84 and what… four more years -- ’88? Maybe he got reelected.
Dorothy Norton -- I know, I’m going to get myself a book so I can tell too, ‘cause I can never remember all of them either.
Carol Tovar -- And so, when I came to the Service, it would have been the late ‘80s…. I don’t remember where Carter was in there…. I can’t tell ya.
Dorothy Norton -- Sure. That’s okay.
Carol Tovar -- I don’t know.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. That’s okay. Senior moment. See, and you’re not even a senior… well, yes, 55 -- you’re considered a senior by our….
Carol Tovar -- I’m CRS though.
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Dorothy Norton -- Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, in your opinion, and just working in the Regional Office and all, who do you feel were some of the individuals who helped shaped the Service? You know, always attending meetings, and submitting things to Washington for consideration, or that type of thing?
Carol Tovar -- I never really quite figured out what they did up in the Regional Directors Office, but I’m sure they were doing things like that. And, I think with that in mind, I think that the first name that’ll probably come out of my mouth is Marvin Moriarity.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay.
Carol Tovar -- Mainly, I think, because of the limited knowledge I have of what he did. I do believe he was involved…
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … in the creation of the National Conservation Training Center.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Have you been out there?
Carol Tovar -- No.
Dorothy Norton -- Oh, that’s unfortunate. Sometime you’ll have to go. And they had… like we had a meeting there last year, and it’s… it’s like a sanctuary. It’s just a haven; it’s just wonderful, wonderful place. You don’t hear any airplanes going over, and it’s so quiet. And it’s very well laid out. And the paths are all paved, you know -- macadamized, and there’s lights on them, so if you walk from one building to another…. And the food that they serve at that cafeteria is wonderful. It’s not like you’re going to Kountry Kitchen, or anyplace like that.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- It’s just very, very restful… very nice, nice place. So, I hope someday, you’ll get to go out there,
Carol Tovar -- Well, I may have had an opportunity or two to do that, but I hesitated because the pictures I’ve seen of the place reminded me of military barracks. And I didn’t want anything more to do with that.
Dorothy Norton -- [Chuckles] Well, the rooming houses, or whatever you want to call them, they’re very nice, and they’re not at all like military. They’re one or two people to
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a room, that’s all. You know, if you go with your husband, he can stay in the same room with you.
Carol Tovar -- Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- When Jackie and I go, I always have to request a room with two beds, because…
Carol Tovar -- Right.
Dorothy Norton -- … we go together, and we sleep in the same room together, but I don’t care to sleep in the same bed. I’m…
Carol Tovar -- Right.
Dorothy Norton -- … so used to sleeping by myself,…
Carol Tovar -- Well, of course.
Dorothy Norton -- … you know. Okay. So, what was the high point of your career with us? Did you have one?
Carol Tovar -- With the Service … I’d say probably – no. I have some in my … while I was working for the Department of the Army. But I would say no for the Service.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, what was the high point in your career with the Army?
Carol Tovar -- Three of us worked on a project when in the … oh, in the early 80s, when personal computers weren’t even being issued out yet. What we did have was Wang word processors. And so three of us worked on a project to create a program that did calculations and roll-ups on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annual basis
Dorothy Norton -- Humm.
Carol Tovar -- … of a … it was a … man hours, and different codes, and …
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- … and increments of time and so I’m pretty proud of that. In fact, I named it. But, you know, I can’t remember what it was I named it.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay
Carol Tovar -- But that I’d say that was probably the highlight of my entire civil service career. That’s my … my proudest moment was having the opportunity to create something that a lot of people used.
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Dorothy Norton -- Did you have a low point in your career, and if so ….?
Carol Tovar -- Well, it was kind of a personal a personal thing … with my second husband. We had some … we had some … social problems.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And I … the job I had then, working for the military, I also had to be in the Reserves. And so, I had to do some weekend time, too. And the times I was away from my children … weren’t happy times for them. And so, I made a decision to take a different job, where I wouldn’t have to be in the Reserves. And that’s what I did. I took a downgrade to protect my children.
Dorothy Norton -- Humm, uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- And that … that was probably the lowest point of my career -- stepping down on the ladder.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- Because stepping back up on it was real, real difficult.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. It is. Okay. So, did you ever have a dangerous or frightening experience?
Carol Tovar -- Dangerous? I don’t think so. Frightening? No.
Dorothy Norton -- How ‘bout humorous?
Carol Tovar -- Humorous? Okay. I’ll tell you the funniest story, one of the funniest stories I can remember. And Joanne Meadows will … will attest to this. In our office in Fisheries, on the sixth floor in the Bishop Henry Whipple Building, is on the … was on the south side of the building, facing the airport. It’s very, very warm in there, with the sun shining in. Well, that building is typically known not to have very good regulation for … for temperature -- indoor temperature. So, maybe this was in the summertime, maybe it was in the wintertime. It’s kind of hard to remember, because temperatures fluctuate in that building so badly depending on where you are and what season it is that …. Anyhow, we had to call maintenance in ‘cause it was either too hot or too cold, I don’t remember which. And the guy comes in with his ladder and his thermometer. He climbs this ladder, up to the ceiling, and holds his thermometer up there to get a reading. And he says ‘wow, its 72 degrees up here.’ And I looked at him and I said ‘it’s not 72 degrees down here where my butt is. My butt is not up there.’ So, Joanne and I just get a big chuckle out that all the time. It’s just … just one of those goofy things that happen.
----------------------------------break in taping--------------------------------------------------------
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Dorothy Norton -- Okay. It doesn’t say the batteries are low now.
Carol Tovar -- Okay.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, what’d you like to tell others about your career with the federal government, as well as the Fish and Wildlife Service?
Carol Tovar -- Oh my career with the federal government I don’t like to talk about much … umm … nor including the Service.
Dorothy Norton -- Okay so did you ever observe any changes in the Fish and Wildlife Service? Like, in personnel, or the environment, or …. Or do you feel it was the same when you retired as when you started?
Carol Tovar – With … with the … in personnel … well, I guess it’s just a normal … normal change that you see. the … the baby boomers … I mean, the longer you stay in, the older your friends and you get, and you can see the younger ones coming in, thank goodness, to … to fill in and start learning.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm.
Carol Tovar -- But that’s normal anywhere.
Dorothy Norton -- So, what are your thoughts on the future? Like, where do you think the Service is heading in the next decade?
Carol Tovar -- Well within the next decade and … well, I’d say in the next four years, it’s not going to go anywhere, too far, because the administration in Washington doesn’t seem to support the environment. I would like to see the Service try to be more involved with other, similar types of agencies, on a on a bigger scale. Because, I think more could be accomplished for the world environment.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm I know that so many people … and still, to this day, find somebody that I’ve known, they always knew that I worked for the Fish and Wildlife, but they’ll say to people, ‘oh, Dotty used to work with the DNR.’
Carol Tovar -- There you go.
Dorothy Norton -- And then the … they say that about you, too.
Carol Tovar – Yes. Exactly the same thing. Uh humm.
Dorothy Norton -- And of course, I had never heard of Fish and Wildlife Service. But let me tell you something very interesting. Years ago my great grandfather started in New York working for the Biological Survey. That’s what it was called back then. And he
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was a guide on the Indian reservations, protecting the lands, whatever they did. I’m not really sure. And he then was transferred to Bismarck, North Dakota. And then, when he became ill, he was only like 56 or 57, passed away out there, and he’s buried in Bismarck, North Dakota. And I’m just going to do some research on that someday, because it’s just very interesting.
Carol Tovar -- I’d say so.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- Your great grandfather?
Dorothy Norton -- Yes.
Carol Tovar -- Worked for Biological Survey?
Dorothy Norton -- It was US Biological Survey, it was called.
Carol Tovar -- Survey.
Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. And then of course, it switched … when I started it was US Bureau of Sports Fisheries and Wildlife.
Carol Tovar -- I think a lot of people still …
Dorothy Norton -- Yes.
Carol Tovar -- … still think of it as that, too.
Dorothy Norton -- Yeah.
Carol Tovar -- Because it seems like we do a lot for the sportsman, for the … and the fisherman. And ….
[indecipherable – both talking at once.]
Dorothy Norton -- A lot of people think all we do is go check for licenses.
Carol Tovar -- Uh hmum.
Dorothy Norton -- And that’s more the state responsibility.
Carol Tovar – Right. Right.
Dorothy Norton -- Anyway, it’s very interesting.
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Carol Tovar – Yeah.
Dorothy Norton -- Well, I just wanted to say thank you for your time. I’m glad we had this time together, just to visit as … even twice as … fun.
Carol Tovar -- My pleasure.
Dorothy Norton – So, thanks a lot.
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| Rating | |
| Title | Carol Tovar oral history transcript |
| Alternative Title | Carol Tovar interview |
| Contact | mailto:history@fws.gov |
| Description |
Carol Tovar oral history interview with Dorothe Norton as interviewer. Carol Tovar started with the Fish and Wildlife Service in the late '80s in Contracting and General Services, then moving to Finances. She retired in 2004. Organization: FWS Name: Carol Tovar Years: 1980's-2004 Program: Business Management and Operations Keywords: Contracting, General Services, Finance, USFWS (employees), History, Biography, Personnel |
| Subject |
History Biography Personnel |
| Publisher | U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service |
| Contributors | Norton, Dorothe |
| Date of Original | 2005-03-07 |
| Type | Text |
| Format | |
| Item ID | tovar.carol1.pdf |
| Source |
NCTC Archives Museum |
| Language | English |
| Rights | Public domain |
| Audience | General |
| File Size | 176 KB |
| Original Format | Digital |
| Length | 25 p. |
| Transcript | Oral History Cover Sheet Name: Carol Tovar Date of Interview: March 7, 2005 Location of Interview: Interviewer: Dorothy Norton Approximate years worked for Fish and Wildlife Service: Offices and Field Stations Worked, Positions Held: Most Important Projects: Colleagues and Mentors: John Mullins; Dave Gustafson; Mike Willett; Bill Anderson; John Christian; Gary Jackson; Charlie Woolley; Marvin Moriarity Most Important Issues: Brief Summary of Interview: Early years in Wisconsin – parents, play, schooling, moving to Twin Cities, etc.; military career – Woman’s Army Corps – radio communications – Vietnam War era; civil service job at Fort Ord, California, where 1st husband was stationed; meeting 1st husband; children; started with FWS in late 80s, retired in 2004; career in FWS; pay and benefits in government service; socializing with co-workers; starting GS and ending GS levels; starting with Contracting and General Services then moving to Finances; jobs and duties; supervisors; presidents in office during service; important people in the Service; NCTC; high point of career; low point of career; dangerous/frightening/humorous experiences; interviewers family history w/US Biological Survey. 1 03/07/2005 Carol. Tovar ?? -- This interview will be between Dorothy Norton and Carol Tovar. Thank you. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, this is Monday, March 7th 2005. And Carol Tovar, I haven’t seen you now for … what, a month was your party? Carol Tovar -- January 26th . Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Okay. Well, I’m glad you had the time today that we can do this. So first thing I want to know is your birth place and date. Carol Tovar -- I was born in Stanley, Wisconsin, on December 27th 1949. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. What town? Carol Tovar -- Stanley. Dorothy Norton -- Stanley? Where is that? Carol Tovar -- That’s in Clark County. It’s east of Thorpe, Wisconsin. Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay. Okay. And so, what were your parent’s names? Carol Tovar -- My mother’s name is Marge, and my dad’s name is Ray. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And what were their jobs and education? Carol Tovar -- Education – minimal. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- Dad went through eighth grade, and Mom never made it to eighth grade, just through sixth grade, I think. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And my dad’s occupation was a truck driver. Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay. Carol Tovar -- And Mom was a nurse’s aid Dorothy Norton -- Oh, wow! Busy with a lot of kids, too. Carol Tovar -- Yes, six. 2 Dorothy Norton -- So, how did you spend your early years? Carol Tovar -- Early years was going to school, and I’d do babysitting. And, of course, it was the oldest of six kids there was always lots of chores to do. It wasn’t… we lived out in the country and there wasn’t a lot of opportunity for socializing. So, we always pretty much kept ourselves busy among all the kids. Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. Okay. So, did you have any hobbies, or did you like reading, or any special things that you liked to do, like, if there were parades, or anything like that, or …. Carol Tovar -- Back… back then, I don’t even recall ever seeing a parade when I was a kid. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- Um… we went to the County Fair once or twice when I was young. I played with my dolls; I had a record player. And we played games a lot, a lot of board games, and… and even outdoor games, like baseball. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- Sometimes, the other neighbor and farm kids would come over, we had an empty field … Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … next to our house, and we had our own baseball diamond out there. And so we just played baseball for hours. Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. Carol Tovar -- And, of course, in winter time we had a hill, we call it the ‘barn hill’ and it came down from the hay mow, and it… we’d make a toboggan slide on that in the winter time and see how far our toboggan would go down the hill from the top. Dorothy Norton -- Oh, I bet that was fun. Carol Tovar -- Oh, yeah. It was great, Dorothy Norton -- So, other than babysitting… that’s the only job you probably had while you were in school. Carol Tovar -- Oh, yeah, when I was young. 3 Dorothy Norton -- You never had a paper route or anything like that? Carol Tovar -- No. My brothers did... Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Carol Tovar -- … when we moved into the Cities, but not me. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Did you ever hunt or fish? Carol Tovar -- Fish. I fish now. Hunting, I couldn’t do. The only hunting I’d do would be with a camera. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And it wouldn’t be out in the field when there’s guns being fired out there. That’s too dangerous. Dorothy Norton -- Yes, it is. Carol Tovar -- And so, but with a camera… I like to do my hunting with a camera. And fishing -- I… I just kind of recently learned how to fish. And I even went to a class… I can’t remember the guy’s name anymore, but he’s well known in the Twin Cities, I took a class from him, a fly fishing class. Dorothy Norton -- Oh. Carol Tovar -- And… and I have a rod -- fly rod. I… I’m not real good with that fly rod, but I do like my spinning rod. And I love to cast with my spinning rod. And the biggest fish I’ve ever caught so far was… was a northern, and that was up by Grand Rapids, and that was about… almost as long as my arm. We were fishing down beneath a dam, on the rocks, and I caught it there. And I didn’t have a net with me, so I… I got him out onto the rocks, but then he flopped back off into the water. And I… if I would have had a net, I would have been able to keep it, but he got away from me. Dorothy Norton -- Then you… would have had it mounted, huh? Carol Tovar -- Yeah, I probably would have. Yeah. Yeah. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, what high school did you go? Carol Tovar -- I went to several high schools. Dorothy Norton -- In …? 4 Carol Tovar -- In Wisconsin. I went to Coleman High School in Coleman, Wisconsin; I went to Abbotsford High School in Abbotsford, Wisconsin. And then we moved into the Twin Cities in 1967, as I was going to be a senior in high school, and I finished my last year of high school at Edison High School in northeast Minneapolis. Dorothy Norton -- And what year was that that you graduated? Carol Tovar -- 1968. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And so, did you go on then to college? Carol Tovar -- No. I wanted to but [indistinct talk and dog barking] Carol Tovar -- Schooling didn’t come easy for me. I had to study real, real hard to maintain some decent grades. Learning didn’t come easy to me, let’s put it that way. And so, I worked really, really hard for grades. And in Wisconsin, both my brother and I were on the National Honor Society. When we came to the Cities, we took such hard classes that we weren’t able to maintain grades good enough to be in the National Honor Society anymore. But, I mean, we took tough classes. And I remember my toughest class in high school was chemistry. Dorothy Norton -- Oh? Carol Tovar -- And I did well in it, but that’s because I had to study hard. But I… that was the toughest class I ever took - was chemistry, I remember that. And, let’s see, I forgot where I was going here. We were talking about high schools. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- Umm…. Dorothy Norton -- And you didn’t go to college, but …. Carol Tovar -- Not… I… okay, after high school, I did want to go to college, but because learning was so difficult for me I figured… and the other economic factor was, there’s no way my parents could pay for me going. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- So, I’d have to pay for my own way to go college, and it… as difficult as it was for me to learn, I didn’t figure I’d be able to study and work to put myself through school. Now, maybe at the time there was there was scholarships available, but my grades weren’t good enough to be able to get a scholarship. And if there were grants 5 available, or any other economic help, I knew nothing about them. So, my plan – B – was to go into the military. I figured I’ll lean a trade there. Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. Okay. Carol Tovar -- And they’ll pay me. And I did learn a trade. I learned how to be a data processing equipment operator. Dorothy Norton -- What branch of the service did you…? Carol Tovar -- That was… at the time that was the Women’s Army Corps [indecipherable] Dorothy Norton -- So, Army. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- And how many years were you in the military? Carol Tovar -- Well, in the military, it didn’t last too long. I was in there a year and a half. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- And that was during Vietnam. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- I didn’t get sent over to Vietnam, but I… I worked at Sixth Army Headquarters, in the Presidio, in California. And that was… being an Army Headquarters like that, I think at the time there was maybe only eight… eight – worldwide -- eight Army Headquarters. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And so, there was a lot of activity going on in each one of those. And ours was… I’m not exactly sure what our mission was there, but I do remember a lot… a lot of soldiers coming back from Vietnam to our… to our Headquarters Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. 6 Carol Tovar -- And so… and I talked to a lot of them, on the radio -- some kind of fancy Army radio – MARS… it was called a MARS Station. I don’t exactly remember what M A R S stands for anymore, but we talked to people all over the world, from our radio tower. Dorothy Norton -- Humm. Carol Tovar -- And I talked to… one of my jobs was to… the soldiers overseas would come to their communications tent, and they would… the operator would make… radio operator would make a connection with us on our radio in the states. And he would have a phone number where we could call the soldiers family. And so my job was to get on the phone, while I’m still on the radio, and call the soldiers family, and explain to them how they had to say ‘over’ when they were… when they were done speaking, so I could flip a switch and the other persons transmission could come through. So I had to listen to these phone conversations from overseas, from a war zone, and back at home, at the domestic…. Dorothy Norton -- Humm. Carol Tovar -- And there were some pretty heart wrenching conversations I was privy to. And most of the time they’d forget to say ‘over’ because it was such an emotional communication. Then, I kind of had to use my own judgment to flip the switch so they could hear each other. So, that was about as close as I got to war, other than the people…. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … the other soldiers that came back and would tell their first hand stories, if they could. It… it was pretty tough. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- But… but I got experience working in a radio station. I also worked in personnel office. Dorothy Norton -- Humm. Okay. Carol Tovar -- And I worked in… in a… with a top secrete clearance, in a communications office. It was more than an office -- it was an operation. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- But… they were all messages from all over the world would come in and we would have to deliver them and get them sent out -- and absolutely not say a word about them. 7 Dorothy Norton -- So, after you got out of the Army what did… where did you go… did…. wait a minute, before you got out, did you ever get ever any decorations or metals or anything? Carol Tovar -- Just… just the normal ones, the… not anything distinguished, just for the units that I belonged to. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- And for the years of service I was in. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, when you got out, what did you do? Carol Tovar -- Then… I got out because I was pregnant. Dorothy Norton -- Oh. Carol Tovar -- At the time, that was an automatic discharge. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- So, I was… I was married, and my husband and I took an apartment in Mill Valley, California, that’s across the Golden Gate Bridge… Dorothy Norton -- Huhm. Carol Tovar -- … in Marion County. Dorothy Norton -- Oh. Carol Tovar -- So, we had an apartment there. And, my first child was born there - my daughter, while we lived there. And I came back to Minneapolis where my folks were, ‘cause he got transferred to another station, and I… me and my baby came home to live with my folks for a while. And then me and my baby moved back out to California where my husband was, at his new duty station, and that was at Fort Ord, California, down by Carmel. Dorothy Norton -- Uh hmum. Carol Tovar -- And we lived on base there, and I worked… I got my first civil service job at Fort Ord, California. I’d already taken the test -- the civil service test, in Minneapolis, before I went out to California. And then I got my job at Fort Ord, California, as a clerk in the food service office. And what that was, was there were about five… five military men who inspected all the mess halls, all the dining facilities… Dorothy Norton -- Ahh. 8 Carol Tovar -- … of the soldiers on post. And they’d bring back their reports, and I’d have to type up their reports, and send them out, and file, and answer the phone -- general clerk type duties. [Indecipherable] It was a good place to work. It was a nice operation. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So you’re telling me now, you were married, but I want to know now when and where and how you met your husband. Carol Tovar -- When… we were… we were married in November 1969. I met him when we were both working at the presidio of San Francisco … Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … in San Francisco, while we were both on active duty. And we got married in Carson City, Nevada, … Dorothy Norton -- Ohh, okay. Carol Tovar -- … in November of 1969. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And so, you have one child, and, did you have any more children? Carol Tovar -- Yes. Yes. We had two children… have two children, and they’re both grown adults now. And one… my… the oldest one is married and… Dorothy Norton -- She working at all? Carol Tovar -- Yes, she… she’s the Community Development Director… Dorothy Norton -- Oh, that’s right, you mentioned that. Yes. Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … for the city of Burnsville. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- She’s doing very well for herself. Dorothy Norton -- That’s good. Carol Tovar -- She put herself through college, with student loans and grants. And, at the time, I was a single… single mother, so there wasn’t much I could do to try to help her through college, although I knew she was going to go. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. 9 Carol Tovar -- And that was her life’s plan, I mean, there was no option about it. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- So, we found ways to do it. And about all I could to help her was just to allow her to live at home while she was going to college. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- I… I couldn’t contribute financially at all… Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … so, that was my contribution. Dorothy Norton -- And your son is Tom. Carol Tovar -- Tom. Yes. Dorothy Norton -- How old… what does he do? Carol Tovar -- He’s… he’s between jobs right now. Dorothy Norton -- Between jobs right now. Carol Tovar -- He is… he likes to do a… laborer as a… working for a moving company. Dorothy Norton -- Ohhff! Well, he’s a big boy. Carol Tovar -- Yeah. He’s a big guy. Dorothy Norton -- Must be strong. Carol Tovar -- And … Dorothy Norton -- Have a lot of patience. Carol Tovar -- Well, patience he’s pretty damn short on. Dorothy Norton -- Is he? Carol Tovar -- Yes. Yes. But he is strong, and he knows what he’s doing. Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. 10 Carol Tovar -- And, in fact, I’m in the process now of… of relocating, and he’s packed up pretty much most of my house on his own… Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. Carol Tovar -- … and… and moved all these boxes to other storage locations for me, and… he’s a big help. Dorothy Norton -- That’s good. Carol Tovar -- Yeah. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, now, we’ll get to your career. Was there any particular reason why you wanted to work for Fish and Wildlife Service… or, how did you happen to come to us? Carol Tovar -- Yes. For the… for the Service… I liked the mission of the Service, to… to protect the environment. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And, had I ever been formally educated, I think I probably would have become an ecologic… ecologircalist (sic?)… Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … ecologist. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- Ecologist. And I… I’m… I consider myself a nature lover. I like animals; I like plants; I garden as a hobby; I feed the birds. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- I love… I love seeing wild animals, and even animals in the zoos. I love watching the programs about them on television, and reading books, and looking at pictures. And I’m just a natural naturalist at heart. Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s good. Carol Tovar -- And so, that’s why I wanted to work for the Fish and Wildlife Service – primarily. Dorothy Norton -- So, when did you start the Fish and Wildlife Service? 11 Carol Tovar -- I started in the late ‘80s. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- And, I retired from there. Dorothy Norton -- Yes. December 31st of 2004. Carol Tovar -- That’s right. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Okay. What had you done then after… before you went to work for Fish and Wildlife Service? Were you just staying home, taking care of your children? Carol Tovar -- No. No. I… I’ve been working all my life. I… I said I got my first job at Fort Ord, California, Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … with the federal civil service, and I stayed with civil service my whole life. Dorothy Norton -- That’s good. Carol Tovar -- I did have a break there, when my second child was born, but then I went back. I joined the Army Reserves... Dorothy Norton -- Ohhh! Carol Tovar -- … after my second child was born. And I did that for about 10 years. And I also got divorced and remarried, in the meantime, in between there. And… but still working for the federal government. And then I… when I was working with the Army Reserves, I had an opportunity to get a full-time civilian job, which I did. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And that was at Fort Snelling… Dorothy Norton -- Ohh! Carol Tovar -- … with the Army Reserves there. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- And I stayed working there until… let’s see, I started working there full-time … oh, mid ‘70s, I’d say. 12 Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm Carol Tovar -- Maybe around ‘74. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And then I stayed there until probably … about the mid ‘80s. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- And then, from there I spent two years downtown Minneapolis, with the Agriculture Department, for two years. Dorothy Norton -- Oh, [indecipherable] okay. Carol Tovar -- And then, I came to the Fish and Wildlife Service. Dorothy Norton -- Good. Okay. So, what did you think the pay and benefits were, working for the government? Carol Tovar -- We were always told that when… when we were sent fact sheets, and read fact sheets, that the pay was 30 percent below the comparable jobs in the area. So, I’ve always been under the impression that we’re underpaid by 30% of what we should have. And we’d been hearing from President Clinton on forward about the Pay Parity Act, and they always found something… some reason not to give federal civil service workers… not to bring them up. They always found a reason not to close that gap. And so, I wasn’t real happy with that. But, overall, I was happy to have a job. Dorothy Norton -- So, did you have promotion opportunities though, when you started with Fish and Wildlife? Carol Tovar -- No. Dorothy Norton -- What did you start as… a GS…? Carol Tovar -- I… I think… let’s see -- a 6 or a 7 -- a GS 6 or a 7. Dorothy Norton -- And you retired at…? Carol Tovar -- GS 9. Dorothy Norton -- GS 9. Okay. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. 13 Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Did you socialize with any of the people that you worked with? Carol Tovar -- Oh, not too much. I had one or two friends... Dorothy Norton -- Oh, oh. Carol Tovar -- … during the meantime. It’s… the… as difficult as it is for me to learn something, it’s just as difficult for me to make friends and trust people. And so… so, I’m… pretty much keep to myself. Dorothy Norton -- I always thought you were friendly. Carol Tovar -- Well, I try to be friendly, but I don’t trust. Dorothy Norton -- [Laughter] Okay. Carol Tovar -- And so I don’t say much either. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- So, I… I’m just a loner at heart, I think. Dorothy Norton -- You are? Carol Tovar -- Yeah. Dorothy Norton -- Well, okay. Carol Tovar -- Yeah, an introvert. Dorothy Norton -- And what did you do for recreation in the field with any of the people that you worked with? I heard you mention bowling earlier. Carol Tovar -- I was on the bowling league. Yeah. Dorothy Norton -- Uh huh. Carol Tovar -- And that… I guess, well, I attended some of the… some of the gatherings they’d have at work. And…. Dorothy Norton -- Uh huh. Carol Tovar -- I kind of picked and chose among those. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. 14 Carol Tovar -- I can’t think of anything offhand. I… I made some friends now, in the building, from other agencies. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And I visit with them a lot, on break time and lunch time. Dorothy Norton -- Well, that’s okay. Carol Tovar -- And that was enjoyable. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. So do you think your time with the Fish and Wildlife Service had any effect on your family? Carol Tovar -- No. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. That’s good. So, you left the Service then when you were eligible for retirement? Carol Tovar -- Yes. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, did you get any training when you came to work for Fish and Wildlife, in what types of job you were going to be in? Or did you know what you were going to be doing? Carol Tovar -- Training was, I’d say, probably minimal… to be able to get the job done. Dorothy Norton -- Uh hum. And what did you start in when you started -- what division? Carol Tovar -- I was in Contracting and General Services. Dorothy Norton -- ICGS, okay. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. As a… they had… I was doing kind of two jobs there. I was putting bid packages together for… for contracts that they would let, and I was also doing move management services -- coordinating peoples relocations to the Region and within the Region. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And then they… management created a job just for the… they wanted to move the … move… move management services out of Contracting and put in Finance, and that’s what they did. And I was lucky enough to be able to go with that. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. 15 Carol Tovar -- And then, I lost, of course, the bid packaging duties that I had been doing. But I gained some other ones. And I got a lot of experience in finance, because I was physically located there. And of course, then I had to do some work in finance too, financial type work. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And so, I learned a lot about finance and budgets there. Dorothy Norton -- Did you enjoy the financial work? Carol Tovar -- Yes! Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- I found it very, very detailed, which I don’t have a problem with. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And sometimes, it’d almost be like a mystery, trying to balance books and find that penny. And, by George, we’d find it too. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- It took some digging sometimes. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- But… Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … it’s there... Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Carol Tovar -- … and you can find it. Dorothy Norton -- I know that I always liked a lot of things about office work, but financial stuff, I… I like working with numbers… Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- … and if I can’t get them to agree, either, too, it just seems like, okay, you have a puzzle, now you have to solve this. 16 Carol Tovar -- Right. Dorothy Norton -- And when you do, then you feel really good about it. Carol Tovar -- Yup. Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. And I… and I like doing all the research some things would take, too, for reconciling the monthly budget records. Like, the print outs that we’d get from Denver might say something, but our [cuff ?] records would say something else. So then, you got to go back, digging in the record, and find it out,… Dorothy Norton -- Right. Carol Tovar -- … where the discrepancy is. And that can be real time consuming, and lead you to a lot of different files. And I like doing that kind of detective work, if you will. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Carol Tovar -- It’s interesting, I think. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. So, you just worked regular hours then, Regional Office hours. Carol Tovar -- Right. Right. Normal 40 hour week. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Well, I did… when I was in Contracting, in the springtime, I’d do… I’d work every Saturday morning, because that was a busy time there, and I could get a lot of work done… Dorothy Norton -- Uh huh. Carol Tovar -- … on that one Saturday morning. Every Saturday, for about three months I would do that. I could get a lot of work done, getting caught up. Dorothy Norton -- So, would you consider this job then, ‘bout relocating and all, would you consider that a project? It says, like, ‘what projects were you involved in?’ Carol Tovar -- Well, it wasn’t project. That was an ongoing… ongoing job. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Were there any projects you were involved in? 17 Carol Tovar -- Projects… well, we… when we got some duties delegated to us from Denver, we tried to develop some manuals. Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay. Carol Tovar -- And I was working on that project. Other… other projects… don’t… no other big projects come to… come to mind right away. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Any major issues that you had to deal with? Carol Tovar -- Major issues….[chch chch – sounds/not words] I’d say not. No. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Yeah. That’s how it is…. Carol Tovar -- Not in the type of work I was involved in. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. That’s usually the manager type…. Carol Tovar -- Yeah. And… and the scientists. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Carol Tovar -- I could see where they could be involved in [indecipherable] things Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, when you started, who was your first supervisor? Carol Tovar -- When I started at the Fish and Wildlife Service? My first supervisor was John Mullins. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And then as you progressed, who were your next supervisors? Carol Tovar -- Oh, let’s see, as things switched around a little bit… Dave Gustafson became my supervisor, as they switched supervisory duties. And then, in finance, there was Mike Willett. And, after him… I’m… let’s see… was Bill Anderson. Bill Anderson came from Denver. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And then, I moved over to Fisheries and I worked for John Christian. Dorothy Norton -- Oh, okay. Carol Tovar -- And he moved on to a different position, and replaced by Gary Jackson. And then, I went over to Ecological Services, and the ARD there at the time was Charlie Woolley. And he went on to a different job and was replaced by the ARD who’s there now, and her name is not coming to me exactly at the moment. 18 Dorothy Norton -- Okay. I don’t know too many of them anymore, either. Carol Tovar -- I can tell you what it is when it comes to me. Dorothy Norton -- Ohhff, that’s okay. So, you think that any of the friends that you have, or that you know today, would be eligible, and should be working for Fish and Wildlife Service? Carol Tovar -- No. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. And so, you remember who was president when you were working for us. You mentioned Carter before… I mean Clinton. (Dorothy, Dorothy.) [Chuckles] Carol Tovar -- Oh, geez, I remember… in 1980, because I remember voting… the voting day. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- It… President Reagan was president from… Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- 1980 to ’84. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And I’m not sure who was in between… ‘84 and what… four more years -- ’88? Maybe he got reelected. Dorothy Norton -- I know, I’m going to get myself a book so I can tell too, ‘cause I can never remember all of them either. Carol Tovar -- And so, when I came to the Service, it would have been the late ‘80s…. I don’t remember where Carter was in there…. I can’t tell ya. Dorothy Norton -- Sure. That’s okay. Carol Tovar -- I don’t know. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. That’s okay. Senior moment. See, and you’re not even a senior… well, yes, 55 -- you’re considered a senior by our…. Carol Tovar -- I’m CRS though. 19 Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, in your opinion, and just working in the Regional Office and all, who do you feel were some of the individuals who helped shaped the Service? You know, always attending meetings, and submitting things to Washington for consideration, or that type of thing? Carol Tovar -- I never really quite figured out what they did up in the Regional Directors Office, but I’m sure they were doing things like that. And, I think with that in mind, I think that the first name that’ll probably come out of my mouth is Marvin Moriarity. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Carol Tovar -- Mainly, I think, because of the limited knowledge I have of what he did. I do believe he was involved… Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … in the creation of the National Conservation Training Center. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. Have you been out there? Carol Tovar -- No. Dorothy Norton -- Oh, that’s unfortunate. Sometime you’ll have to go. And they had… like we had a meeting there last year, and it’s… it’s like a sanctuary. It’s just a haven; it’s just wonderful, wonderful place. You don’t hear any airplanes going over, and it’s so quiet. And it’s very well laid out. And the paths are all paved, you know -- macadamized, and there’s lights on them, so if you walk from one building to another…. And the food that they serve at that cafeteria is wonderful. It’s not like you’re going to Kountry Kitchen, or anyplace like that. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- It’s just very, very restful… very nice, nice place. So, I hope someday, you’ll get to go out there, Carol Tovar -- Well, I may have had an opportunity or two to do that, but I hesitated because the pictures I’ve seen of the place reminded me of military barracks. And I didn’t want anything more to do with that. Dorothy Norton -- [Chuckles] Well, the rooming houses, or whatever you want to call them, they’re very nice, and they’re not at all like military. They’re one or two people to 20 a room, that’s all. You know, if you go with your husband, he can stay in the same room with you. Carol Tovar -- Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- When Jackie and I go, I always have to request a room with two beds, because… Carol Tovar -- Right. Dorothy Norton -- … we go together, and we sleep in the same room together, but I don’t care to sleep in the same bed. I’m… Carol Tovar -- Right. Dorothy Norton -- … so used to sleeping by myself,… Carol Tovar -- Well, of course. Dorothy Norton -- … you know. Okay. So, what was the high point of your career with us? Did you have one? Carol Tovar -- With the Service … I’d say probably – no. I have some in my … while I was working for the Department of the Army. But I would say no for the Service. Dorothy Norton -- Well, what was the high point in your career with the Army? Carol Tovar -- Three of us worked on a project when in the … oh, in the early 80s, when personal computers weren’t even being issued out yet. What we did have was Wang word processors. And so three of us worked on a project to create a program that did calculations and roll-ups on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annual basis Dorothy Norton -- Humm. Carol Tovar -- … of a … it was a … man hours, and different codes, and … Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- … and increments of time and so I’m pretty proud of that. In fact, I named it. But, you know, I can’t remember what it was I named it. Dorothy Norton -- Okay Carol Tovar -- But that I’d say that was probably the highlight of my entire civil service career. That’s my … my proudest moment was having the opportunity to create something that a lot of people used. 21 Dorothy Norton -- Did you have a low point in your career, and if so ….? Carol Tovar -- Well, it was kind of a personal a personal thing … with my second husband. We had some … we had some … social problems. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And I … the job I had then, working for the military, I also had to be in the Reserves. And so, I had to do some weekend time, too. And the times I was away from my children … weren’t happy times for them. And so, I made a decision to take a different job, where I wouldn’t have to be in the Reserves. And that’s what I did. I took a downgrade to protect my children. Dorothy Norton -- Humm, uh humm. Carol Tovar -- And that … that was probably the lowest point of my career -- stepping down on the ladder. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- Because stepping back up on it was real, real difficult. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. It is. Okay. So, did you ever have a dangerous or frightening experience? Carol Tovar -- Dangerous? I don’t think so. Frightening? No. Dorothy Norton -- How ‘bout humorous? Carol Tovar -- Humorous? Okay. I’ll tell you the funniest story, one of the funniest stories I can remember. And Joanne Meadows will … will attest to this. In our office in Fisheries, on the sixth floor in the Bishop Henry Whipple Building, is on the … was on the south side of the building, facing the airport. It’s very, very warm in there, with the sun shining in. Well, that building is typically known not to have very good regulation for … for temperature -- indoor temperature. So, maybe this was in the summertime, maybe it was in the wintertime. It’s kind of hard to remember, because temperatures fluctuate in that building so badly depending on where you are and what season it is that …. Anyhow, we had to call maintenance in ‘cause it was either too hot or too cold, I don’t remember which. And the guy comes in with his ladder and his thermometer. He climbs this ladder, up to the ceiling, and holds his thermometer up there to get a reading. And he says ‘wow, its 72 degrees up here.’ And I looked at him and I said ‘it’s not 72 degrees down here where my butt is. My butt is not up there.’ So, Joanne and I just get a big chuckle out that all the time. It’s just … just one of those goofy things that happen. ----------------------------------break in taping-------------------------------------------------------- 22 Dorothy Norton -- Okay. It doesn’t say the batteries are low now. Carol Tovar -- Okay. Dorothy Norton -- Okay. So, what’d you like to tell others about your career with the federal government, as well as the Fish and Wildlife Service? Carol Tovar -- Oh my career with the federal government I don’t like to talk about much … umm … nor including the Service. Dorothy Norton -- Okay so did you ever observe any changes in the Fish and Wildlife Service? Like, in personnel, or the environment, or …. Or do you feel it was the same when you retired as when you started? Carol Tovar – With … with the … in personnel … well, I guess it’s just a normal … normal change that you see. the … the baby boomers … I mean, the longer you stay in, the older your friends and you get, and you can see the younger ones coming in, thank goodness, to … to fill in and start learning. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. Carol Tovar -- But that’s normal anywhere. Dorothy Norton -- So, what are your thoughts on the future? Like, where do you think the Service is heading in the next decade? Carol Tovar -- Well within the next decade and … well, I’d say in the next four years, it’s not going to go anywhere, too far, because the administration in Washington doesn’t seem to support the environment. I would like to see the Service try to be more involved with other, similar types of agencies, on a on a bigger scale. Because, I think more could be accomplished for the world environment. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm I know that so many people … and still, to this day, find somebody that I’ve known, they always knew that I worked for the Fish and Wildlife, but they’ll say to people, ‘oh, Dotty used to work with the DNR.’ Carol Tovar -- There you go. Dorothy Norton -- And then the … they say that about you, too. Carol Tovar – Yes. Exactly the same thing. Uh humm. Dorothy Norton -- And of course, I had never heard of Fish and Wildlife Service. But let me tell you something very interesting. Years ago my great grandfather started in New York working for the Biological Survey. That’s what it was called back then. And he 23 was a guide on the Indian reservations, protecting the lands, whatever they did. I’m not really sure. And he then was transferred to Bismarck, North Dakota. And then, when he became ill, he was only like 56 or 57, passed away out there, and he’s buried in Bismarck, North Dakota. And I’m just going to do some research on that someday, because it’s just very interesting. Carol Tovar -- I’d say so. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Yeah. Carol Tovar -- Your great grandfather? Dorothy Norton -- Yes. Carol Tovar -- Worked for Biological Survey? Dorothy Norton -- It was US Biological Survey, it was called. Carol Tovar -- Survey. Dorothy Norton -- Uh humm. And then of course, it switched … when I started it was US Bureau of Sports Fisheries and Wildlife. Carol Tovar -- I think a lot of people still … Dorothy Norton -- Yes. Carol Tovar -- … still think of it as that, too. Dorothy Norton -- Yeah. Carol Tovar -- Because it seems like we do a lot for the sportsman, for the … and the fisherman. And …. [indecipherable – both talking at once.] Dorothy Norton -- A lot of people think all we do is go check for licenses. Carol Tovar -- Uh hmum. Dorothy Norton -- And that’s more the state responsibility. Carol Tovar – Right. Right. Dorothy Norton -- Anyway, it’s very interesting. 24 Carol Tovar – Yeah. Dorothy Norton -- Well, I just wanted to say thank you for your time. I’m glad we had this time together, just to visit as … even twice as … fun. Carol Tovar -- My pleasure. Dorothy Norton – So, thanks a lot. 25 |
| Images Source File Name | 9468.pdf |
| Date created | 2012-12-13 |
| Date modified | 2017-10-10 |
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