David McMullen oral history transcript

              Name: David L. McMullen

Date of Interview: February 29, 2008

Location of Interview: Tigard, Oregon

Interviewer: Jerry C. Grover

SUMMARY

Years worked for Fish and Wildlife Service:

27 ½ years Offices and Field Stations Worked, Positions Held: October 1973, joined the FWS as a U.S. Game Management Agent in Bellingham, Washington (position was in transition to U.S. Special Agent). In 1975 moved to Portland as a Special Agent still. 1979 moved to Washington D.C. was still a Special Agent but worked as a Desk Officer until 1982. In 1982 to Twin Cities, Minnesota as Assistant Special Agent in Charge 1985 selected as Special Agent in Charge for Portland (Region 1, Pacific Region). Retired from Region 1 as a GS-14 supervisor over Law Enforcement in 2001 – the Assistant Regional Director, Law Enforcement.

Most Important Projects: The start-up of the Wildlife Forensics Lab in Ashland, Oregon, and the case involving illegal harvesting of spring Chinook salmon on the Columbia River. Colleagues and Mentors: Clark Bavin, Bob Hodgins, Dick Myshak, K.C. Frederick, Al Misseldine, Larry Wills and Kahler Martinson. Most Important Issues: Enforcing Endangered Species Act ESA), stopping the hunting clubs in California from baiting to lure ducks in. Brief Summary of Interview: Dave McMullen was born in Oregon City, Oregon and raised in the small town of Marquam. He talks about his dad and his mom, how they met and where they lived. He relates about growing up and going to school, being interested in hunting and fishing and being the oldest of nine children, including his twin brother. He and his twin brother, Don, both went to college together and majored in the same the field. Dave talks about meeting his wife, having children and the jobs that he had before he joined the Service, which included: Oregon Game Commission, then worked for The Research Division of the Oregon Game Commission as a Fisheries Research Biologist, and then took a job as a Conservation Officer in Idaho and then having an investigative position with Idaho before being approach by the Fish and Wildlife Service. Dave talks about getting on with the Fish and Wildlife Service and different positions that he has had and some of the people that he worked with. He also talks about successes that he has had while working for the Service and some of the hardest things to do while in the Service such as providing adequate habitat for endangered species at the time of listing. Talks about different issues and projects, good changes that have occurred and things that have been disappointing to him such as politics getting involved in some the decisions of listing of endangered species. He also talks about starting up the forensics lab for the Service, his feelings for the Service and talks a little about his fishing tournament that is currently held every year.

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THE ORAL HISTORY

Jerry: Good Morning. This is Jerry C. Grover. I’ll be conducting this oral history interview with Dave McMullen. Sitting in today is Judy M. Grover. Please state your name for the record.

Dave: It’s David LeRoy McMullen. Jerry: What was your job title when you retired from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service? Dave: There were two titles for my position. One was Assistant Regional Director for Law Enforcement, a Management title; the other, Special Agent in Charge, was used in the Division of Law Enforcement. Jerry: And when did you retire? Dave: I retired in August of 2001 in Portland, Oregon. I supervised the Region 1 (Pacific Region) Law Enforcement Program at that time. Jerry: Now that we've established where your career wound up, let's go back to where it all started for you. Where were you born, and when? Dave: My identical twin, Don, and I were born in Oregon City, Oregon, on July 16, 1944. Seven more children were born in the family after that. Jerry: What did your folks do? Dave: My dad was an independent truck driver and owned a log truck most of the time--we referred to him as a "gypo" truck driver. He was born in Kansas, but when he was a young man during the Depression, he and a friend hiked to Lakeview, Oregon. He applied for a job there, and was asked if he could drive log trucks, and he said that he could (although he hadn't actually driven one before). There was only one job opening, so he and his friend flipped a coin for it; Dad won. Dad gave his friend everything he had--I think a quarter and some other things--and the other guy headed for Alaska. Dad stayed in Lakeview for ten years, driving truck. Jerry: And when did your mom come into the picture? Dave: About ten years later… Dad had moved up to the Portland area where he met Mother when she was working at a bank in Canby. She lived in Molalla. In fact, she graduated from Molalla High School twenty years to the day before I graduated from that same school. I was raised in a little town called Marquam, just outside of Molalla. They were logging communities, basically. Jerry: You went to school in Marquam…or you went to school in Canby?

Dave: I went to grade school at Butte Creek Grade School, located just outside of Marquam. I went to high school in Molalla. Then I went to Oregon State University, majoring in wildlife management. The year after I started college (1963), the folks moved to Amity (another small town in the Willamette Valley), and that’s where they resided until my father passed away in ’94. My mother still has the place in Amity. Jerry: The place that your folks had when you were growing up must have been pretty rural? Dave: Yes. We had five acres on a road called Wildcat Road that ran up into the foothills of the Cascade Mountains between Marquam and Molalla. It was agricultural and timberland. Jerry: Were you a hunter and fisherman at that time? Dave: All the time. Jerry: You and your brother and your other siblings? Dave: Yes. We didn’t have many guns--Dad couldn’t afford many guns--but we all had fishing rods. Sometimes, I would leave in the morning and fish all day on the local, rural streams and get back with about a half dozen trout. I got to really enjoy the outdoors. We didn’t do much hunting far from home because we couldn't afford it. To this day I don’t know how Dad raised nine kids with one logging truck. I just don’t know how he did it. Jerry: I expect your mother kept very busy making ends meet at home? Dave: She made a lot of our clothes. She raised chickens--we raised several hundred chickens each year and harvested them. She did a lot of canning. We had a milk cow, so we had milk and butter. The kids always had to milk the cows; I did a lot of that (in fact, when I was in high school, I worked on a large dairy farm, milking cows to help make money). Jerry: Did you have any other jobs? Dave: I picked strawberries. When we were young we’d pick strawberries and beans--and I picked hops. When I got big enough, I "bucked" hay bales on local farms. I worked in agriculture; I never worked in the woods. Most of my brothers became truck drivers and worked in the woods or in lumber mills. Jerry: You mentioned that you were the first-born of nine children in the family? Dave: Yes, seven boys and two girls. Jerry: Your poor mother. 4

Dave: Yeah, yeah. She was sure protective. She was a good mother, and to this day none of her kids can do anything wrong. Sometimes her sons' wives get quite exasperated because Mom sides with her sons, even when they don’t deserve it.

Jerry: Let’s talk about your college years. You and your twin brother, Don, took the same major at OSU? Were you in many of the same classes together? Dave: Not so much in college. Don was trying to get through in three years, so he took extra classes and doubled up on some others. He ended up getting sick, but he was still able to finish in about 3-1/2 years. Since he graduated early, and I went an extra year, we didn’t have many classes together. He graduated about six months early, as I recall, and took a job immediately with the Idaho Fish and Game Department as a conservation officer. When I was in college, I worked at a fish hatchery and on an off-shore salmon survey out of Coos Bay, Oregon. For the Oregon Game Commission. After I graduated, I took graduate courses and worked with the Research Division of the Oregon Game Commission, studying sea run cutthroat trout in the Siuslaw River and the Alsea River. Jerry: At that time, as I recall, included within the Oregon Game Commission was a Fish Commission and a Game Commission--the Fish Commission dealt with the commercial species and the Game Commission was involved with game fish, like trout. Dave: That's correct. I was a Fisheries Research Biologist, but I worked for the Game Commission on sport fish. I did that for about a year; then my wife became pregnant, and we decided that we needed more permanent employment and/or more money. I took a job as a Conservation Officer in Idaho, where my twin brother was already working. I always wanted to be a wildlife enforcement officer, anyway. I left Oregon because, in order to become a game officer with the Oregon State Police, you were required to be a traffic officer for a few years before you were given the opportunity to work as a game officer. I was not inclined to work as a traffic officer. Jerry: You mentioned that you all of a sudden ended up with a pregnant wife. How and when did Florence come into the picture? Dave: I met her in college. I roomed with her brother at OSU and I probably met her through him, but I don’t remember. Jerry: And what was her maiden name? Dave: Swanson… Florence Swanson. She was born in Breckenridge, Minnesota--in the nearest hospital to her parents' farm was in North Dakota. When she was two years old, the Swansons moved to the Lebanon, Oregon, area and purchased a farm there. Jerry: And you met her at Oregon State--what was her major in then? Dave: She was an English Education major. She lacked only a few credits of obtaining a B.A. at Oregon State when we had a baby and moved to Idaho. So, she didn’t finish up at Oregon State, but, years later, she got a bachelor's degree in the English/Writing Program at George Mason University in Virginia.

Jerry: What year(s) are we talking about now? When did you graduate and go to Idaho? Dave: I graduated from Oregon State University in ’67 and moved to Idaho in April of that year. We lived in northern Idaho near a mining town called Wallace. Wallace and Kellogg (a nearby town) were in a large silver mining area, and nearly everyone there worked in, or for, the mines. Five years and two more children later (three kids in all), we moved to Weiser, Idaho, which is on the Snake River at the upper end of Hell’s Canyon. I worked for approximately a year in Weiser. From there, we moved to eastern Idaho because I had been selected for a newly-created, strictly investigative, position in that region. I worked on complex investigations and covert investigations. Jerry: Okay, law enforcement investigations; as opposed to scientific wildlife management? Dave: Law enforcement investigation of major wildlife violations, usually involving the illegal commercial use of wildlife. Jerry: How was the comparable pay in Idaho at that time? Dave: Terrible. That’s why I left. I started at five hundred dollars a month, before taxes. My twin brother, who had been a conservation officer for a year before I came to work in Idaho, left after three years because he found it impossible to financially support his family there. He joined the FBI, where the pay was significantly better. I was recruited by the Bureau then, but elected not to go. I really enjoyed being a conservation officer. Jerry: The Idaho job? Dave: The Idaho job…I just loved it! I stayed for about 6 ½ years, struggling financially. Then I was approached by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and asked if I would be interested in becoming a U.S. Game Management Agent in Bellingham, Washington. Although I had some misgivings, I sent in an application and, on that same day, left on an undercover hunt that I'd previously set up. It was a ten-day, illegal, closed-season hunt in the Salmon River country. I was expected to let the Service know as soon as I returned from that undercover hunt, if offered, whether or not I would take the job. There wasn't much time to think about it. Obviously, when offered the job, I jumped at the chance. Jerry: Now, we’re transitioning from the state of Idaho, where you were an undercover agent, to a job offer in Bellingham. And was this the beginning of your career with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service? Dave: Yes. I started as a U.S. Game Management Agent in October of 1973. That year, the Service established the Division 5

of Law Enforcement--so the position transitioned from Game Management Agent, which included biological responsibilities, to Special Agent, strictly responsible for law enforcement.

Jerry: Which, at that time, consisted of duck banding and…?

Dave: Well, Game Management Agents conducted waterfowl banding projects in Canada. Agents would be away banding ducks for several weeks at a time. They also handled waterfowl depredation complaints, did dove surveys, and took on other biological tasks. I didn't get in on much of the biological work because, in the spring of 1974, I went to the Treasury's law enforcement school in Washington D.C., and was issued a Special Agent badge. After that, I was primarily involved with law enforcement. Jerry: Who hired you, Dave? Dave: A gentlemen by the name of Al Misseldine. He was the Special Agent in Charge in Portland, Oregon. He was originally from Idaho and maybe that was a reason he looked favorably upon an Idaho wildlife officer. I had been recommended for the job by a U.S. Game Management Agent out of Boise, Neil Argy, whom I had worked with when I was an Idaho Conservation Officer. Although Neil spent most of his career in Alaska, he had moved down to Boise by the time I met him. Sadly, shortly after I left Idaho, Neil died of a heart attack while working in the Snake River Canyon with other agents. He was only 49 years old. Jerry: At what grade were you hired? Dave: I was hired as a GS-9. The pay was notably better than what I had been receiving as a state officer in Idaho. In addition to the basic pay, we received AUO (administratively uncontrolled overtime). Jerry: Plus, you probably received the health benefits, the retirement benefits… Dave: The health benefits were probably comparable, but the retirement plan was significantly better. If I had remained an Idaho officer, I'd still be working in order to receive my full retirement. I might well have stayed with Idaho had I thought I could afford to raise my children there and put them through school. Jerry: The Bellingham office was just a one-man office? Dave: Just a one-man office. In fact, it was a new office. Although another agent had been hired for that station, he left it after just three days on the job. He apparently concluded that he had made a bad mistake in leaving his former job. Jerry: Okay, so you were doing a lot of Puget Sound kind of work--hunting and fishing, both? Dave: Mostly waterfowl work. I was only there for two years; most of my work involved either waterfowl or the international border. We had just started our border inspection program nationwide and there were several new federal wildlife laws in '72 and '73, including the Endangered Species Act and the Marine Mammal Protection Act. We were starting to monitor the import of walrus ivory and endangered species products. So, the work mainly pertained to enforcement of the border and the waterfowl hunting laws.

Jerry: Where did you go after Bellingham? Dave: In 1975, I moved to Portland, Oregon. Jerry: Did you get a promotion out of that? Dave: No. It was a kind of coming home. At first, my focus was primarily waterfowl hunting enforcement there, but, as time went on, it branched out to include a good deal of Lacey Act work on Columbia River salmon. I also did a lot of work involving the Endangered Species Act. Portland eventually became one of only thirteen designated ports of entry for wildlife imports in the U.S. Since we didn't have inspectors assigned for the Portland port then, I conducted inspections myself, examining shipments for prohibited items. Jerry: Who was your boss at that time? Dave: Dick Coleman was my Senior Resident Agent out of Salem, Oregon, and Larry Wills was the Special Agent in Charge in Portland. I was a field agent and just did field work. I spent almost a year on one case involving illegal harvest of spring Chinook out of the Columbia River. A woman had developed a scheme to sell illegally harvested Columbia River salmon all over the nation. She was an enrolled member of the Yakima Indian Nation, but her fish operation was outside the scope of what the tribe authorized. She bought fish from illegal fishermen on the river, and then she boxed and iced the fresh salmon the morning they were brought in. These fish, marked as frozen seafood, were trucked to the airport in Portland and put on a plane. One day, an Oregon State Trooper happened to be at the airport; he opened one of these boxes to discover fresh, unfrozen spring Chinook salmon from the Columbia River. Intense work on that case then began. Jerry: After that, did you remain a field agent? Dave: By 1979, I'd been promoted to GS-11. I went to Washington D.C. as a desk officer, where I worked on a variety of federal laws. Although my title was still Special Agent, I was called a desk officer. We worked on major investigations with the field officers. Jerry: And who was your supervisor there? Dave: A fellow by the name K.C. Frederick was my direct supervisor. The Chief was Clark Bavin. Jerry: Did that job lead you up to Congress for hearings or to meeting the staff up there? Dave: I attended hearings before Congress. I attended Supreme Court Cases involving fish and wildlife. That was a good 6

learning experience. I also traveled to several foreign countries, mostly in Central America and the Caribbean, on investigations. It was very rewarding and educational. Jerry: Okay, when did you leave D.C. then? Dave: In 1982, I moved to Twin Cities, Minnesota, as the Assistant Special Agent in Charge. I spent a couple of years there. Jerry: What grade would that job have been? Dave: The grade was a GS-13. Then in 1985, actually it was the fall of ’84, I was selected as a Special Agent in Charge for Portland. I moved here in January of ’85 as a GS-14 Special Agent in Charge. The Service had just combined two Region 1 Special Agent in Charge positions into the single position that I filled. Jerry: Okay, so you were the Special Agent in Charge of the five western states, plus Hawaii and the Pacific Trust Territories? Dave: That’s correct. Jerry: And you had offices in Honolulu and you had your office in Portland; did you have one in Guam, too? Dave: Yes, we did have one in Guam, but we did not have offices in American Samoa, Yap, Palau, or The Northern Marianas. Jerry: At that time, what were your concerns as a Special Agent in Charge for the Fish and Wildlife Service? Dave: Well, we oversaw the Endangered Species Act, particularly as it pertained to import and export. Illegal commercialization of endangered species became more and more and more important to us. Waterfowl enforcement and migratory bird enforcement became less important. Jerry: What were some of the endangered species items that attracted your attention? Dave: Anything from illegal trade across the Mexican border, such as pet parrots, ivory (all types of ivory), crocodilian products, and sea turtle products. As time went by, we became more involved in enforcing domestic endangered species regulations. Listing the northern spotted owl, the marbled murrelet, and several species in California as endangered had a huge impact on the environment and the development in habitat of these animals. Broad areas were impacted when we listed the spotted owl--logging and other activity in the owl's historic range were affected. Jerry: Organizationally, who was the Regional Director at that time? To whom did you report? Dave: I reported to six Regional Directors during my time in Portland. Dick Myshak was the first Regional Director, and then I believe it was Rolf Wallenstrom…

Jerry: …and Kahler Martinson? Dave: Kahler was a Regional Director when I was a field officer in Bellingham and Portland. I became quite close to Kahler. Jerry: So, you've already mentioned three of the Regional Directors. Plenert had to be in there somewhere. Dave: Yes. Marv Plenert, Mike Spear, Ann Badgley, and, I believe, Dave Allen… all in Region 1. Jerry: During this period, how many people were in the Law Enforcement Program for the region? Dave: At the peak, I supervised about 130 people. Jerry: Wow! In LE? Dave: In Law Enforcement. In the early '90’s, the Service created a national wildlife forensics laboratory to work on wildlife crimes nationwide. Congress had provided money with the idea that the lab would be built in Ashland, Oregon. The Chief had supervised the forensics (there was a forensics branch in our Washington D.C. office, but not at a lab at that time). Because it was built in this region, somebody in the Directorate made the decision that the lab and its employees would be included in Region 1. From the early ‘90’s until about two years before I retired, I oversaw the building and the staffing and the development of that lab. Ultimately, when it was transferred back to Washington under the Chief, it had a staff of thirty scientists, technicians and clerical personal. Therefore, thirty of those 130 in Region 1 Law Enforcement were associated with that forensics lab in Ashland. Jerry: And the rest were field agents scattered throughout the western United States? Dave: About forty, forty-five were agents. Approximately thirty were uniformed wildlife inspectors stationed at the ports of entry. Jerry: Ports in San Francisco, L.A. and Portland? Dave: Yes. There were also ports in Seattle, San Diego, Honolulu, and Guam. My staff in Portland comprised the remaining number of Region 1 employees. The staff dealt with issuing about 7,000 migratory bird permits a year. Migratory bird permit holders were allowed to possess, kill, or capture protected migratory birds, in or out of season. Many of the permits were issued to college students doing studies. There was a large variety of permit classifications, including: research, crop depredation, captive breeding, falconry, and more. Issuing migratory bird permits was kind of a nasty job because there were a lot of appeals if permits were denied or revoked. It took a lot of time. Jerry: Okay, you’re getting up into your career now. You’ve gone through the transition of just being a duck cop to being concerned with endangered species like the spotted owl and 7

marbled murrelet. Is there a notable case that stands out, that really made a mark for the Fish and Wildlife Service… pro or con? Dave: There were a couple. There’s a case that, although it didn’t involve endangered species, it did result in benefiting wildlife. In the ‘50’s and ‘60’s, very exclusive waterfowl hunting clubs in southern California convinced the Service to allow them to put out feed--and hunt waterfowl within a certain distance of the feed. Southern California had a lot of row crops then, and ducks, particularly widgeon, were causing depredation on these row crops. The wealthy hunting clubs convinced the Service to allow them to put bait on the clubs to lure depredating ducks away from the farms, and also to allow the club members to shoot the ducks that were coming to and from the bait. Such a practice is contrary to Federal statute, and not allowed any place in the nation other than southern California. Only the elite hunted these clubs; I even saw pictures of Presidents on the walls of some of the clubhouses.

Well, about my third or fourth year as Special Agent in Charge, I decided that allowing this kind of activity to continue was just not appropriate. Crop depredation wasn't an issue anymore; this manner of hunting became just a social issue. Our efforts to end the practice of luring ducks to their demise prompted a series of court cases. A tremendous amount of political pressure was placed on me personally and on the Regional Director, Mr. Myshak, to leave it alone. The people that hunted these clubs were not without contacts. We were compelled, however, to pursue the cases because of what we witnessed taking place on the clubs. Dump trucks filled with grain were driven out on the dikes between the ponds, and loads of grain dumped there. The ducks began clamoring for the feeding grounds at the first sign of a truck was approaching. The ducks were in a panic, swimming or flying as fast as they could to the feed site. The local ducks were all attracted to these exclusive clubs. If you were not a feeding club, but had a pond in the vicinity of one, you didn’t get any ducks. I think there were twenty-five or thirty of these licensed feeding clubs. The state licensed them and so the state also fought us. The state had people representing the clubs at the litigation.

Ultimately, the federal courts ruled against the clubs, asserting that baiting activity was contrary to federal law. Finally, after decades, the feeding of waterfowl on hunting clubs in California ended. Now, this might not have a great impact on the resource, because ducks can reproduce pretty fast; but from a social, as well as a fairness standpoint, I believe it was an extremely important case. Jerry: Technically. Dave: I thought it was the right thing to attempt. Some of my predecessors had tried to stop the clubs from baiting, too. Everything finally lined up––it wasn't my success as an individual––the stars lined up at that time, and it got done. I did feel satisfied with, and relieved by, how things finally turned out. There was a lot of pressure on me and it was very uncomfortable for Mr. Myshak; he was under pressure, too. I have a great deal of respect for the man. Jerry: Okay, that was a kind of success. Did you have something that you wish you’d done or something you couldn’t get done… anything go belly up on you? Dave: Yeah. I think the hardest thing was trying to provide adequate protection for some endangered species, particularly the spotted owl.

Jerry: Lack of resources, human resources? Dave: The lack of support in addressing violations was frustrating. It's difficult to show a take of endangered species when the habitat is destroyed. If an area with a nesting pair of spotted owls is clear cut, it’s obvious that the owls are going to leave, but it’s very difficult to get the courts, the politicians, and everybody lined up to try to put a stop to that. Sometimes, attempts to protect a species actually sped up the damage to the environment or to its habitat because people felt that if they didn’t get the trees down immediately they weren’t going to ever be able to do so. And in some areas, I actually think logging increased. In national forest, however, particularly in the northwest, logging was curtailed--but on private land and on state land, particularly in Oregon and Washington, logging activities weren't slowed. We didn’t do our job as far as protecting what was there at the time of the listing. I think if you go back and do a survey now of the habitat that’s left on private land and on state land and compare it to what was there at the time of the listing you’re going to be disappointed. (I don’t have any numerical data to support that statement.) Jerry: How were your relationships with the state folks on enforcement issues? How would you characterize the federal/state relationship? Dave: To my experience, state officers did virtually no enforcement on the Endangered Species Act in Washington or Oregon. In particular, they did not enforce taking as a result of habitat manipulation. Their efforts were directed toward resident species. The state officers were very helpful if somebody shot an eagle or a spotted owl––they would work on that. But, if somebody cut down a nest tree, the state officers felt their laws weren't strong enough for them to take significant action. When it came to direct take, we had a good, close working relationship with all state wildlife agencies; but not with incidental take. Jerry: I believe I understand you’re saying that, as far as waterfowl hunting regulations, seasons, and bags go, you had good relationships with the state officers? Dave: Yes, yes. Jerry: What about the other agencies where you have shared responsibility at the federal level? BIA had agents on fish. Did you deal much with the National Marine Fishery Service? Dave: Our interactions were very spotty, and we didn't work with them as much as we could have. The National Marine Fishery Service was responsible for listing commercial species of salmon as either endangered or not endangered--and it became the primary agency to enforce the Endangered Species Act on the 8

species listed as endangered. When it started listing some of the Columbia River runs as endangered, the National Marine Fishery Service had overlap with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Before fish were on the endangered listing, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, under the Lacey Act, did the enforcement. When I did enforcement work on the Columbia River, it was pursuant to the Lacey Act. After the National Marine Fishery Service listed the salmon on the Columbia River, that agency began doing most of the enforcement there. The two agencies didn't have a real close relationship. Jerry: I'd like to get into another kind of reflecting back. Is there one individual that was within the Fish and Wildlife Service, or somewhere in your career, who stands out as being your mentor or supporter––someone who helped you along? Dave: There were several admirable and helpful people. I guess I’ll mention two of them. First, there was Clark Bavin, who, as Chief of Law Enforcement, changed the Division of Law Enforcement to its current form. He was sort of the father of the division in Law Enforcement. Before Clark, Animal Damage Control and Law Enforcement were together as one division––called Management Enforcement, I think. Clark developed the Division of Law Enforcement. When I went to Washington D.C., I found that Clark didn't have a particularly favorable reputation in the field because he hadn’t been a field agent for very long, just for a short time in Chicago. He was an attorney, and some people felt he was a little too aggressive in his changes. I found him to be brilliant! When he came into a room where we had been arguing over a subject and trying to develop a plan--he'd go to the chalkboard, make a few scribbles, and ask, “Well, why wouldn’t this work?” We would look at one another as if to say, “why couldn't any of us think of that?” I was very impressed with him.

And then, second, there was Robert Hodgins. He was the Special Agent in Charge in Minnesota when I was the Assistant Special Agent in Charge there. Bob was politically appointed as the Agent in Charge of Region 3; that’s the only job he ever had with Fish and Wildlife Service. He had been the Director of the South Dakota Fish and Game Department for eight years before he was appointed the job in Minnesota. Robert was just a wonderful human being; the most honest person I think I’ve ever worked for. He was thoughtful and humble. He would sometimes ask me, “What would you do, Dave, if this happened?” When there was an issue with a field agent, he'd explain the circumstances to me and ask, "How would you handle it?” I would answer him the best I could, and then he'd say, "Well, that probably would work." Then, after he'd dealt with a situation, he'd tell me, “Well that would’ve probably worked. This is what I did.” What he did was always better than what I had proposed be done. And I always knew who was the boss. He called me "Junior." We had a big central area where all seven or eight of the ladies in the office worked; Bob's office and my office were on opposite ends of this area. He didn’t allow doors in the office because he didn’t think anybody should say anything that couldn’t be said in front of the ladies, or anybody. Bob would holler “JUNIOR” from his end of the office, and I would have to get up from my desk and walk in front of all these ladies to go and see what he wanted. But I just totally respected the man. He was such a good person and he taught me a lot about how to deal with people and how to treat others. Jerry: Very good. Earlier, you spoke about the successful efforts to shut down baiting on duck clubs in California. Is there something else that stands out over your career? Something that either gave you satisfaction personally or helped advance the cause of the Fish and Wildlife Service?

Dave: We worked for eight or ten years establishing the forensics lab, and it stands out in my mind as a worthwhile project. Many decisions concerning its development were difficult to make because I wasn’t a forensics expert, and determining how to staff it required a lot of research on my part. I feel proud that the lab was successful and, to my knowledge, it still is. Jerry: It’s a world leader. Dave: It just took time to hire the right people. I hired Ken Goddard, who is still the director of the lab. He had been in charge of the forensics branch in our Washington office. When the lab was assigned to my region, it was my responsibility to pick its first director. Ken applied because he’d been working with the Service in forensic science under Clark Bavin. Clark called me and advised me against selecting Ken because, although he was a "good man," Ken could be "difficult" at times. I made the "difficult" (but fortunate) decision to hire Ken. (I'm not talking out of school because Ken is aware of Clark's advice against selecting him for the position. Although both are good men, Ken and Clark just didn’t mesh.) Jerry: As you reflect back, have you seen changes in the Fish and Wildlife Service that have benefited the conservation management of wildlife resources? Dave: Considering the Service as a whole, not just law enforcement, I would say that the Endangered Species Program was a positive change that aided conservation management. There was virtually no Endangered Species Program when I started with the Service, you know. Efforts to protect endangered species worldwide with CITES, as well as within the country, have really changed the Fish and Wildlife Service. I’m proud of the refuges as they continue to grow; I don’t know how many refuges we have now, but there are well over 500. Our hatcheries are still important, too. But I think that the effort the Service has made to protect endangered species over the last 30 or 40 years has had the most significant impact. Jerry: What about the flip side of that? Have you seen a move by the Fish and Wildlife Service that you thought was disastrous? Dave: I can't recall the Service making a real major mistake. I was very disappointed by the politics that sometimes affected decisions on individual cases about whether or not to list certain species, and whether or not to protect their habitats. But there was never a massive collapse of the system. Jerry: But politics were the… 9

Dave: Politics were very frustrating, and are to this day. I read in the newspaper about people getting involved in our endangered species decisions for their own political gain. Someone recently stepped down at the Assistant Secretary level because of alleged political influence; we were subject to that kind of pressure in the Service, too. We may not have had people stepping down, but there was no question that, for political reasons, the research and the documents that biologists put together in the field didn’t always end up the way that they were originally drafted. Jerry: Any specific one that you find more aggravating than others, since this is water under the bridge now and it’s also history. Dave: No, but I would like to make it clear that I enjoyed my time with the Fish and Wildlife Service. I was treated very well and it was a wonderful place to work––good people, kind of a family. Dale Hall, the present Director, has hunted with his boy on my mom's property. The Service and I were on good terms when I retired, but, in accordance with my nature, I just left without dropping back around my old stomping grounds. And, as you may know, I don't go to retirement get-togethers. Jerry: Dave, one of the things since you retired, I understand that you have a fishing tournament… Dave: Well I… Jerry: …that you are the chairmen and the sole rules committee? Dave: Yes. I set up the Old-Timers' Bass Tournament. It’s one way that I've kept in touch with people that I've worked with in the Fish and Wildlife Service and with the Idaho Fish and Game Department and with the Oregon State Police. We have a three or four day tournament on the Snake River in Hell’s Canyon. I've been enjoying fishing and hunting during my retirement. Those are my main activities other than doing a lot of hand mowing on our property, which is less enjoyable, but is probably good for me to do. Jerry: Thanks, Dave. That's the end of the tape. Continue to enjoy your retirement.