Mercedes Eicholz oral history transcript

              INTERVIEW WITH MERCEDES EICHOLZ (DOUGLAS)

Former wife of Justice William O. Douglas

United States Supreme Court

Recorded telephone interview by Roger Kaye, June 15, 2004 Fairbanks, Alaska

MR. KAYE: The subject of this interview is the visit of Ms. Eicholz and her husband

Justice Douglas to the Murie’s Sheenjek Expedition camp in 1956. Mercedes I want to

thank you for offering to talk to me today. And I’d like to ask you to start with a brief

biographical sketch; where you were born, where you grew up, and how you came to be

interested in the outdoors.

MS. EICHOLZ: I was born and raised in Louisiana, in an agricultural environment. My

father was an agriculturalist, and he was manager of a large cotton plantation on the

Mississippi River. The outdoors was my life. Also, during the period I was around ten,

my mother had a great friend who had about 40 acres of native forest in her possession.

She did many books on the flora of Louisiana. My mother got her to start a camp. Eight

of us went and spent a month with this lady in this native forest. We walked through and

learned the sounds, what to watch for; “leaves of three-leave them be!” That was a most

important memory about poisonous plants. Maybe that interested me in really wildlife.

Although growing up on the Mississippi, the horse was my main interest because I

learned to ride as a child. I was an avid horseback rider. I rode along the levees of the

Mississippi River and through the cotton fields. I did that until I went to college.

Country girls liked the wilderness more that city girls. I think that’s just natural because

you come from the land and the land is very important. We lived through floods and

pestilence. We lived through the Bow Weevil and through all of that. I rode a school bus

to school until I went to college. I went to college in southwest Louisiana in the Acadian

country there are lots of swamps and marshes, which I loved to go into. However, I am

not sure, well my first husband was the head of the Bonneville Power Administration and

the Assistant Secretary of the Interior. He had the National Parks under his jurisdiction,

along with the Indians and a few islands and territories.

MR. KAYE: What was his name?

MS. EICHOLZ: C. Gerard Davidson.

MR. KAYE: I see, okay.

MS. EICHOLZ: We did a lot of going to the Parks. Not to the Forest Service materials

so much. Then later on, when I got involved with Douglas, I think one of his attractions

to me was my ability with horses. He was a lousy horseman. That is a figment of

people’s imagination. They thought he was great. He did ride and we had horses and we

did all of these things together. He got me to proofread his second book,

Strange Lands and Friendly People. Before that, I had read Of Men and Mountains and

it’s very indicative of his need of the mountains. He gives a lot of credit to his long hikes

in the cascades to cure his weak leg. He had the stamina and everything else put together,

on his feet. I always feel that his obsession with wilderness goes back to his childhood;

growing up at Yakima and being in the Cascades all of the time. He always said, “You’re

quite a little horsewoman!” Well, I was! I wasn’t a fancy horsewoman. I was a western

rider. But the mutual love of these places was a mutual thing with us.

On the C&O Canal, when I first came back to Washington after I divorced and

before we married, he was going up into the Appalachians for long distances to hike. I

told him there was a wonderful hike right outside his doorstep; the C&O Canal. I took

him down to the Canal and he became obsessed with saving it when he read the editorial

in the paper about the Park Service proposing to pave it over to make a scenic highway

up the Potomac. He wrote a letter challenging the editor who had written the article

saying, ‘I would like you to come with me and walk this distance, and learn the beauties

of this kind of an experience.’ They all got blisters. They hiked from Cumberland

[Maryland] to Georgetown [Washington, D.C]. I’ve forgotten how many days it took.

They camped out along the way. But when Marlowe Cusey and Bob Esterbrook got

back to Washington, they retracted there statements and said that, ‘Yes, we must save

this as a hiking path.’ They have reunion hikes every year. They had one this year. A

friend of mine’s daughter was on it and wrote me about it. I think that was his first

experience with saving something. This was in 1954, in the spring. I think that that’s

when he coined the expression, “a Ghandian Hike”. It was great expression to use. He

did it a peaceful way; showing people what was good. He did the Ghandian Hike down

the Olympic Peninsula coastland, to save the state from putting a highway along that

coast. That was a hard walk. He had to go up and down, and down into low tides and

back again. But we did it, and when we came out at the end, the press was there of

course. That was the beauty of someone like him, being on the Supreme Court; he could

get attention. The press met him, and he saved that one!

In the course of all of this the Wilderness Society, the Sierra Club, the Wildlife

Federation and everybody got in on it. They all went on these treks with him. He and

Olaus [Murie] became great friends and admirers of each other.

MR. KAYE: Did they meet on the C&O Canal hike?

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t think so. I am not sure how he met Olaus. That I can’t tell you.

MR. KAYE: But they did hike together on the whole route?

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t know whether Olaus went on the C&O or not. He certainly

went on the Pacific hike. I guess Olaus had told him that he was doing this. He was

tracking animal tracks, you know. He went up there to make all of these little molds of all

of the animals. I think it was the Carnegie Foundation that funded this. But nevertheless,

he invited us to come up. We flew in from Fort Yukon.

MR. KAYE: This is up to the Arctic Refuge then?

MS. EICHOLZ: Yes, to what became the Arctic Refuge.

MR. KAYE: Was the invitation to Douglas to come up to Sheenjek related to the fact

that Olaus went on the C&O walk with him?

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t think Olaus went on the Canal.

MR. KAYE: Yeah, he walked the whole thing.

MS. EICHOLZ: He did? Well that’s where it started then. Maybe not where it started,

because Bill was very involved with all of the anything relating to John Muir and

wilderness.

MR. KAYE: I see, so they probably knew each other before the C&O.

MS. EICHOLZ: Next to Civil Liberties in the Constitution, he was, I think, more deeply

devoted to this aspect of his life. It all came out of wherever he met these people. I

know that the trip on the John Muir Trail in the Sierras came out of his association with

Brower, who was in charge of the Sierra Club at the time. I know on that trip we were to

go. It was hiking with pack string. I asked David, “As long as the packer is bringing

string, can they bring a couple of horses!” Bill was having a lot of trouble with Bursitis.

He was in great pain. He did, and I rode a horse all of the way. I am not a lover of being

on my feet. In the course of all of this hike, somebody was always using the other horse.

Finally, they convinced Bill to get on the horse. It was towards the last day because he

was suffering. That came out of all of his relationships with all of these people who were

trying to save the west; whether it would be…well, in that book, My Wilderness, that he

talks about the Forest Service and their cutting down of trees along the Cascade Trail. We

used to drive along there and he’d say, “Look at what those bunnies are doing!” He

always called them “bunnies”. “They are reforesting, but look at what it looks like!” It

wasn’t natural at all. His other crusade was that every member who retired from the

Forest Service ended up with a job in the lumber companies! It was sort of an inside

operation. The question was always in his mind as to whether Gifford Pinchot created

the Forest Service separate from Interior in terms of our great outdoors and whether that

was a good idea, or not. I think maybe Teddy Roosevelt and his group wondered too, but

nevertheless it happened. The other thing that changed was the kind of forestry. We

went through the period of when you never burned the underbrush, so when you had a

forest fire, it had all of this kindling underneath it. Now, I think they are beginning to

burn underbrush again. I’m not sure.

MR. KAYE: Let me ask you about going to the Arctic Refuge again. How was it that

you and Justice Douglas came up to visit the Muries?

MS. EICHOLZ: Because they asked us, and he was fascinated with it. I don’t know

whether Olaus thought that this would get the idea started or not. I am not sure what was

in Olaus’ mind. But they had been involved in all of these other things. It was a natural.

And we had a good time despite the mosquitoes and everything else. I remember that

George Schaller was always getting field mice in the cook tent. I told him, “George,

please quit doing that when I am around!” I hated seeing those field mouse skins! But

that was for scientific purposes. Krear was always off photographing. He had to throw

his camera at a bear once. I remember that. We fished through the ice. It was great! I

brought back out of that two of those little ground azaleas. We dug them out of the

permafrost and bagged them. I planted them in our garden in Georgetown and they lived

until one year when there was a hot, dry summer. Somebody hadn’t watered them, so

they died. They would have survived. They are like those little dwarf Japanese azaleas.

We were always bringing back plant material when we traveled. In Asia he collected rose

hips, he pressed plants and we would bring back roots of things, which would pass

through. The Embassies of each country would send them in a diplomatic pouch. It went

straight to the Department of Agriculture out at Beltsville. It was just a natural affinity.

For his part, I think those were his greatest loves, and he did that.

MR. KAYE: What was your impression of the country, the Sheenjek?

MS. EICHOLZ: I was fascinated with it; the terrain, the [muskegs?] having to balance

yourself when you walked around. To see the Caribou migrate was absolutely

mesmerizing. I never saw a bear. I don’t think we ever saw a Grizzly. I think it was a

black bear that Bob Krear fought off.

MR. KAYE: Yeah, he had a couple of encounters with bears. They were grizzlies.

MR. EICHOLZ: Where is he now?

MR. KAYE: He’s in Colorado. I talk to him once in a while. He is distributing some of

his history stuff related to that to the National Conservation Training Center, and

archiving it. I just received about thirty pictures from that period from him. I am making

copies of them. He’s around.

MS. EICHOLZ: I entertained George [Schaller] when he came in to Washington for

something long after. It was some project he did; I think it was the Year of the Gorilla.

MR. KAYE: The Mountain Gorilla, it was called.

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t know what’s happened to George either.

MR. KAYE: He’s still running around the country. I’m in contact with him sometimes.

He’s in Asia mostly.

MS. EICHOLZ: I can tell you somebody we were in contact with when we got there was

Sally Karriger. She came to Fairbanks and we had quite a nice time with her. Her book is

fascinating.

MR. KAYE: Tell me about her. She was very much involved and interested. She

testified on the Arctic Refuge.

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t know what’s happened to her. I kept the book. I have her

book. I enjoyed our visits with her, and I guess I was impressed with her a little after

that. She was a real dedicated Alaskan.

MR. KAYE: At the Sheenjek, what did you talk about in terms of the Arctic Refuge?

Do you recall Justice Douglas talking strategy with Olaus and Mardy at all?

MS. EICHOLZ: No, that’s a piece of my memory that I don’t have. I can’t be helpful.

And I don’t know if they talked strategy. And Mardy is gone, and it’s too bad we can’t

do anything there.

MR. KAYE: Well, I’m asking you to go back half a century almost! Certainly, I can’t

expect you to remember everything! What was your impression of Olaus and Mardy?

MS. EICHOLZ: They were very soft, gentle people and very dedicated. Mardy

particularly, I admired. She was raised in Alaska, or came from there originally. She was

just a lovely, handsome woman. But, you know, it’s one of those pairs of people who

come through your life and you never forget them. The impressions were great, that’s all

I can say!

MR. KAYE: George Collins came by when you were up there didn’t he? He was with

the Park Service. Do you remember if he stopped by when you were up there?

MS. EICHOLZ: I think so, but I don’t remember him at all. I just remember there was a

mistake in Douglas’ chapter when he said, ‘what’s his name came to take us out’. It was

a pilot who took us in there. I went through that, and I discovered that who ever that

bush pilot was had a little Oronka, single motor. I wasn’t scared of the Oronka, but it

bumped like crazy. When we went in from Fort Yukon, we had a cake that we had to

take in for somebody’s birthday. I can’t remember who it was. I was holding on my lap

the cake and a frozen fish; a great big fish to bake. I got so sick, I filled up every bag!

When we landed I said, “I’m not going to ever go back! I’m going to stay here!” Ed

Wheeny came in, in his two motored Beechcraft to take me out of there. I don’t know

how Bill goofed on that chapter, but it’s not a serious goof.

MR. KAYE: In that chapter, he speaks in almost spiritual terms about the Arctic Refuge.

I am wondering if that is related to the fact that just a couple of years before he had done

that long trip in the Himalayas. I forget, but he walked a couple of hundred miles and

stayed at a Buddhist Monastery. Was he more oriented toward eastern religions and

spiritually of eastern religions at that time in his life?

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t think so. I just think that from the time he was a child, the

mountains were his god. His father was a Presbyterian minister. He proclaimed to be a

Presbyterian. He went to the Church once a year at Easter. He gave them money, not

much, but he paid his dues to the Church. Maybe Buddhism did strike him. To me it’s

the most serene of all religions. I am an Agnostic myself. But if I were to be anything, I

would be a Buddhist. I did, at Bill’s request join the national Presbyterian Church with

my tongue in my cheek. I did it because of him. But then, when our marriage got into

trouble…you know, the minister is supposed to come and console you? Well, nobody

was going to console Bill’s wife when it was Bill’s doing. I never heard from them. Then

they started hounding me for money. I finally said, ‘I’m just very sorry. You never

played the role you were supposed to for me. I am now married to another man, please

take me off of the list.’ They said that they had to put me on ‘probation’. I said do that,

do anything, just get me off of this list! Of course that doesn’t relate to any of this. It

relates to religion. And as I say; Bill, I think because of his father, stayed a Presbyterian

but it was a token thing. It could be that the Buddhism had something to do with it. He

was in India a lot also, with a lot of Hindus. His guide across the Himalayas was a Hindu.

He was a man who had gone to Columbia named Raoul. He came from a little village in

India, but had gone to Columbia University. I don’t know how Bill lined him up, but

they had a great bit of companionship together.

MR. KAYE: Bill talked quite a bit about wolf hunting, and his distain of the aerial wolf

hunting going on in the Arctic Refuge. Do you remember that going on, or being

discussed?

MS. EICHOLZ: I think maybe he and Olaus talked about it. He disdained anybody that

would shoot from a plane. If you were going to hunt, you hunted on the ground.

MR. KAYE: Did Justice Douglas hunt in his earlier years?

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t know if he did growing up. But I know that when he went to

Iran he went with the Kashdar tribes and went Gazelle hunting. He came home with

several Gazelle horns. He did kill, but he did it from, I think, the back of a horse that was

running. He did have a couple of Elk horns too.

MR. KAYE: Was Justice Douglas friends with Howard Zanhiser?

MS. EICHOLZ: Yes, very much.

MR. KAYE: I wonder if Howard might have influenced the way Douglas thought, or if

maybe there was a mutual interaction. They spoke about wilderness is very similar

terms, it seems.

MS. EICHOLZ: You know what? These men who he associated with and admired and

revered, but I don’t think anything influenced Bill’s thinking on this. I think he was just a

born lover of nature, no matter where it was. As I say, no matter where he went he

collected specimen of the flora. He carried a plant press with him. All of those things are

in the Smithsonian now. His pressed plants from Iran are there. I can’t remember what

else, but I remember when he gave them. He gave a lot of his collection.

MR. KAYE: I know that he was politically well connected. In 1960, it was doubtful

whether the Arctic Refuge would be established because it was very controversial. I am

wondering if you think that if perhaps Douglas had connections in the Eisenhower

administration he may have made some contacts to influence?

MS. EICHOLZ: I think that possibly he did. But as I say, if they were oral contacts

there is no record. But if there were written contacts, his papers are all at the Library of

Congress. You could go to the Manuscript Division and dig them out.

MR. KAYE: Would he have been likely to call the Secretary of the Interior Setton or

someone like that?

MS. EICHOLZ: Oh, no question! He would be likely! From the time I knew him, it

started with Ickes. He had Fortis there as the Under Secretary. And there was ‘Cap”

Krugg; that’s when my first husband was involved. But he would have called any of

them! I know that whenever he went abroad for the summer, he would always go see the

President, no matter who it was. He would say he was taking a trip, and ask if he could

do anything for them. There are a lot of funny stories around that because somebody

asked him…I don’t know what Eisenhower asked him to come back with, but I remember

Truman asked him to find out if Nehru was a real Communist! When he got back he went

to see him and he said, “Well, I have a report. I want to tell you Mr. President that Prime

Minister Nehru is as much of a democrat as you are!” This isn’t relative to the

wilderness, but he brought another message back during the Korean War. He met some

Chinese in Hong Kong. They told him to tell the President that if the U.S. crosses the

Parallel, they would go in. And they did of course. Oh, who was it, the man that Truman

finally fired? Oh, Macarthur, that bull-headed man!

He did do a lot of trekking in Malaya. Have you got West From Malaya? That’s

a book he did on Southeast Asia. You might get that.

MR. KAYE: I’ve read Of Men and Mountains.

MS. EICHOLZ: North From Malaya is a book of his treks in Southeast Asia. He didn’t

do that much walking. And I don’t know that he did anything in Australia in the way of

walking. But he walked everywhere he could.

MR. KAYE: Let me ask you about naming places. Bob Krear recalled a campfire

discussion in which Justice Douglas and Murie and himself and probably you and others

were talking about a name for the Arctic Refuge. He remembers that Douglas really didn’t

like the idea of naming places. Do you remember what his thoughts were on that?

MS. EICHOLZ: I don’t remember that conversation, but I was there. It was only Bob

Krear, the Muries and me and George Schaller. I do know that he didn’t think things

should be named for people.

MR. KAYE: Why would that be?

MS. EICHOLZ: Maybe he feels that you couldn’t get the right name for the right place.

I don’t know why that would be. He was a very modest man!

MR. KAYE: That’s the questions that I had. I really appreciate this time spent with

you. Is there anything that you’d like to add for the record?

MS. EICHOLZ: I tell you what; you haven’t sent me your address or anything…

MR. KAYE: I will.

MS. EICHOLZ: Send me that. Send it to 1940 Mission Ridge Road Santa Barbara, CA

93103. I have an email too. I am working with the Biographer who is doing the

definitive story on Douglas, David Danowski. I’ll ask him if there is anything, or if he

would mind your calling him. He’s going to be on the move pretty soon because he is

coming to the west coast to get some more things from Charles Reich. Charles Reich was

Hugo Black’s law clerk. Reich helped on the Rosenberg thing because one clerk couldn’t

do all of it. They started hiking together and he lived in the apartment house next to the

one we were in. They would do a hike every Sunday. My son didn’t go every Sunday.

But sometimes he would go because Charlie was his friend. Charles Reich is a goldmine

of information about Douglas’ feelings about this because he was on the original C&O

hike with him and continued. We moved to a house above the Canal and Charles would

come over and they’d take the dog and go straight down to the towpath and walk. I’d go

up north and pick them up so they didn’t have to walk back. Charles is a source of

information about his love of saving things. Charles Reich is, and he’s hard to

communicate with because he’s been ill. Sometimes he answers, and he sometimes

doesn’t. I’ll call him and tell him that you may be contacting him. It’s Reich. He’s at

1977 Broadway, San Francisco, CA 94133. His phone is 415- 771- 3653.

MR. KAYE: That would be great!

MS. EICHOLZ: He leaves pretty soon to go where he spends the summer with his

brother. Don’t you know that book, The Greening of America ?

MR. KAYE: Oh, yes! Okay, it’s that Reich! I didn’t know there was a connection

there.

MS. EICHOLZ: That’s him! When he left Washington, he left the Law practice. He

went to Yale to teach and he was a born teacher. When he leaves at the end of the month,

his address will be P. O. Box 56, Long Lake, NY 12847. That phone number is 518-624-

5182. Danowski has posed to him a very difficult question, which I can see. Charles

says he doesn’t quite know what to do about it. It has nothing to do with wilderness but

I’ll tell you if you have an interest.

MR. KAYE: Okay.

MS. EICHOLZ: [Reading letter from Reich] “David Danowski is meeting me here on

June 25th and I’ll be going to my summer place on the following Tuesday. I have just

received a letter from David with 37 characterizations of Bill’s personality that he has

gleaned from friends and foes. My job is to comment on each word he lists as to whether

it applies. Some are easy such as independent. Some are thought provoking, such as

insecure. Some are wrong in my opinion, such as self-sufficient. He certainly depended

on you in many ways that were obvious. Some of the most important words I would use

are not included at all, so I’ll try to provide a better picture. For example, loyal to

friends, comes to mind, in his concern for former clerks. Apparently, no one used the

word visionary, which is one of the first things I think of. Describing Bill’s mind is even

more challenging than describing his personality.” David asked him, ‘in what ways was

his mind unusual?’ He answers, “I’ll try my best to answer. I think a really fine book is

in the making. Now, I have more. What was Bill’s personality like, and what was so

special about his mind? On the first, I am always amazed at how farsighted he was and

how interesting he could be on so many subjects. His mind was unique in my experience.

Hugo Black always said that Bill was a genius. Of course, that’s what I say too. My

difficult task is to try to explain what unique means as applied to Bill.”

Charles will be a great one because as I said, he did a lot of hiking with Bill. I am

not so sure, no; I don’t think Charles was on the Olympic Coast hike with us. Elon

Gilbert was, but not Charles. If I think of something, I’ll send it to you.

MR. KAYE: Well I’d sure be grateful for that. What I will do is to send you a release

form for this interview. Just a description of it. It will archived at the University of

Alaska. I’ll send that off to you. I’ll include my address. Anything you may think of let

me know.

MS. EICHOLZ: I’ve got to edit my oral history. And there may be something that

comes out of that. The other thing I have to do it that I’ve got more papers here and

articles on Douglas that I have to send to the Library of Congress. I’ve sent all of his

letters to me. There were so many that I am sure there will be something. But they can’t

be opened until his daughter and I are dead.

MR. KAYE: I sure do appreciate your time today!

MS. EICHOLZ: Well, I hope it was helpful. All I know is that he was born in a little

town in Minnesota. That wasn’t wilderness, it was country. But from the time they

moved to Washington State, where his father died in the Horse Heaven Hills, which are

north of the Columbia River and east of Yakima, it’s the most beautiful country in the

world, he was a mountain man!

MR. KAYE: Can I ask what year you were born?

MS. EICHOLZ: 1917! I am happy to say! I’ll be 87 this year, and still kicking!

MR. KAYE: I can tell that!

MS. EICHOLZ: My father lived to be almost 100, and he always said to me, “Don’t

stop using your mind. Don’t stop doing things.” I have been President of our Museum

Board here for three years. I no longer the President, but I’m still on the Board. And I’m

still just as active as ever in that and in the music here. I’m out of the wilderness now.

I’m sorry I am. I’d rather be out at my ranch in the San Anez Valley, but when I couldn’t

get the blade off of my bush hog, that’s a great big mower that the tractor pulls, I mowed

all the pastures and fertilized them all, and did all of these activities. My strength began

to give out and I decided I’d better move to town! So here I am stuck in not too big a

city, but stuck. If you don’t start moving again, you don’t leave where your friends are.

That’s the greatest mistake. And you don’t go into a retirement home where there are

nothing but old people. You have to keep young friends! So I’d like to meet you some

day.

MR. KAYE: I’m going to try to get down there some time.

MS. EICHOLZ: And I told you to look up Molly Cooper. She’s at the University in

Fairbanks. It’s Anthropology, or Indians. It’s has to do with the Eskimos. She’s a great

lover of Eskimos.

MR. KAYE: I will look her up. And I hope to get down to Santa Barbara again. I was

down there earlier visiting with Rob Nash, who writes about wilderness. So if I can get

down there again, I’ll look you up!

MS. EICHOLZ: Let me know!

MR. KAYE: Thanks so much for this!

MS. EICHOLZ: Okay, see you!

MR. KAYE: Bye-bye.