Norm Johnson oral history transcript 
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ORAL HISTORY
Of
Norm Johnson
Animal Damage Control Program (Retired)
Interviewed by
Dorothe Norton
On March 22, 2005
Oral History Program
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
National Conservation Training Center
Shepherdstown, West Virginia Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 1
DN: ... April 22, 2005 and this interview will be with Norm Johnson and Dorothe Norton. So, we will begin by asking you, Norm, where and when you were born? Date and place?
NJ: Well, I was born May 18, 1930…
DN: In…
NJ: Near Lemington, Wisconsin.
DN: Who?
NJ: Lemington, Wisconsin.
DN: Where is that?
NJ: It, uh, is south of Couderay, which is like 50 miles east of where we are right now. We’re in Webster.
DN: Oh, okay.
NJ: Yeah. Just off of highway 70.
DN: Oh, okay. Thank you. And so what were your parents’ names?
NJ: My dad’s name was Roy Johnson, and my mother was Thora Johnson.
DN: What were their education and their jobs?
NJ: My father was a farmer.
DN: Okay.
NJ: My mother was a housewife.
DN: That’s good. Did you have a large family?
NJ: I had two brothers and one sister.
DN: That’s not too bad.
NJ: Nope.
DN: Average. Vick LaValasavick, who is a retired agent now in Duluth, was the oldest of 15. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 2
NJ: Well.
DN: His mother was a busy lady.
NJ: My grandmother had 15 children.
DN: Did she really? Yeah. Well, back then, it did not seem to be as bad. So where did you spend your early years, then? In that area, always, or?
NJ: No, at a very young age, my father died.
DN: Oh.
NJ: And we moved to St. Croix Falls.
DN: Oh, okay.
NJ: So I grew up in St. Croix Falls.
DN: Okay. And so, what did you do your early years? Did you have any hobbies, or read a lot, or?
NJ: Well, I was very active in the Boy Scouts.
DN: Good.
NJ: And other hobbies were hunting and fishing.
DN: Uh huh, good. So you did hunt and fish as a kid then?
NJ: Oh yes.
DN: Uh huh. Did you have your brothers teach you, or just?
NJ: No, I had to kinda to gather that up by myself.
DN: Well, that good. Uh huh. Okay. So, did you have any jobs then before you graduated in high school?
NJ: Oh yes. I worked part of the time in a filling station.
DN: Good. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 3
NJ: And I worked five years in a bakery.
DN: Oh.
NJ: All through high school.
DN: Good.
NJ: And one year after high school.
DN: That’s good. So, then what high school did you graduate from?
NJ: St. Croix Falls.
DN: In what year?
NJ: 1948.
DN: 1948. Okay. And then, from there, did you go to college?
NJ: No I didn’t. I worked one year with the bakery and then I worked two years as…in a meat cutting shop, and then I was drafted.
DN: Oh, you were drafted, okay.
NJ: During the Korean War.
DN: Which service did you?
NJ: Army. I was in the Army Airborne.
DN: Okay, and so you went in there about 1950?
NJ: I went in 1951, yes.
DN: Uh huh. And how many years?
NJ: Two years.
DN: Two years.
NJ: I was out in 195l; May of 1953.
DN: What were your duty stations? Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 4
NJ: Basic training in Fort Riley, Kansas, and the rest of the time I was at Fort Benning, Georgia.
DN: Uh huh, and what did you do?
NJ: I was in the airborne artillery, and we just trained as paratroopers.
DN: Okay. Did you ever…You weren’t ever overseas, then?
NJ: No. No. We did not, we didn’t leave the country.
DN: So the military service didn’t relate in any way to your employment with Fish and Wildlife, did it?
NJ: No.
DN: Okay. Did you ever get any decorations for being excellent at anything, or?
NJ: In the military?
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Only through basic training. I was given a…
DN: You were probably the smartest kid in the class. (laughter) Okay, so when you got out then, did you qualify under the GI Bill to go back to school, or go to college, I should say?
NJ: Yes I did. Yeah. On the GI Bill.
DN: Pardon me?
NJ: On the GI Bill.
DN: Good, that’s very good.
NJ: Uh huh.
DN: And where did you go to college?
NJ: Well, the first two years I was at River Falls.
DN: Oh, okay. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 5
NJ: And then I transferred to the University of Minnesota until we couldn’t afford that anymore. We were married at the time.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And so I transferred back to River Falls and graduated there in 1958.
DN: What was your degree?
NJ: Biology major…
DN: Biology?
NJ: Biology major and a chemistry minor.
DN: Okay. Did you go on then, trying to get a Master’s, or?
NJ: No I didn’t. After I graduated from college, I worked one fall with the Wisconsin State Department of Conservation, as they called at that time.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: . . . As a Game Warden.
DN: Oh. Okay.
NJ: And that was just a 3-month assignment.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And after I completed that, I was hired by the Fish and Wildlife Service.
DN: Oh. Well that’s good.
NJ: When I was at the University of Minnesota, I worked one summer for the Fish and Wildlife Service with Animal Damage Control.
DN: Okay.
NJ: It was just a summer assignment.
DN: Uh Huh. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 6
NJ: So then when I went off looking for employment, I went back to Fish and Wildlife and….
DN: Okay. Well, before we leave your personal information, I want to know when, and where, and how you met your wife.
NJ: Well, I met her when she was six years old.
DN: Oh. You both lived in the same area, huh?
NJ: She lived across the alley from us.
DN: Oh, isn’t that nice. That’s how the Duncan’s are. They’ve got pictures of them when they were just babies, both in the same frame, from a little town…Seneca, or something, South Dakota.
NJ: Oh, is that right?
DN: Well, that’s nice. Isn’t that nice? So you knew each other a long time.
NJ: Oh yes.
DN: And then when and where did you get married?
NJ: We got married in 1954 at the Little Brown Church in Iowa.
DN: Oh. The Little Brown Church, yeah, I’ve heard…I have some friends that did too, but that’s cute. Okay. Do you have any children?
NJ: We have two boys and two girls.
DN: And what are they doing now? Just the children, not the grandchildren?
NJ: The oldest son is a chemical engineer and he lives in Maryland.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And the younger son is a…does carpenter work, and he lives in this area.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And the next one down is our daughter who lives in Phoenix and is a teacher.
DN: Uh hum. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 7
NJ: And the youngest daughter lives in San Diego and she’s a biochemist.
DN: Oh, isn’t that nice. You have all these places you can go on vacation.
NJ: Right.
DN: Yeah, but I bet you kind of miss them sometimes, too, don’t you…Or they probably have been there so long now that you get kind of used to it. Grant and Stew probably….
NJ: We only have two grandchildren.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And they’re in Phoenix.
DN: It’s nice to go there in the winter.
NJ: Yeah.
DN: Okay, well then so you started with the Fish and Wildlife in 19…
NJ: …59…
DN: …59…
NJ: Yeah, February of 1959.
DN: Okay. And you came on as a…
NJ: I was a trainee in what was called P&RC, or Predator and Rodent Control, at that time…
DN: Okay…
NJ: …And my first assignment was Bismarck, North Dakota.
DN: Oh boy. Okay. And so your first professional position really was…would you consider what you did for State of Iowa your first real job, where you were getting paid money and …?
NJ: For who?
DN: For the State of Wisconsin. I’m sorry. I said Minnesota.
NJ: Yes, that’s my first real job. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 8
DN: Okay, but then you came to Fish and Wildlife, okay. And so where did you go from there?
NJ: From Bismarck?
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: I was transferred to Huron, South Dakota.
DN: Okay.
NJ: As an Assistant District Agents, they called them then.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And I was there for two years, not quite two years, and then transferred to North Platte, Nebraska.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And the same type of a job, a supervisory position with Predator and Rodent Control. And from there I transferred to St. Paul and worked Minnesota and Wisconsin as a State Supervisor in Animal Damage Control, they called it then.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And then I transferred to Denver, Colorado…
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: As a state supervisor for the Animal Damage Control Program there.
DN: Just in the state of Colorado? That’s a big state.
NJ: That was a pretty good sized program. We had about 50 employees at that time. And from there I transferred to Washington. Uh, I was, uh, with the Animal Damage Control Program there also. And I was in DC until 1979. It would be from 1971 until 79.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: I transferred to Albuquerque.
DN: You did get around. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 9
NJ: I was a Regional Supervisor for Region 2.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And then in 1985 the program was transferred out of the Fish and Wildlife Service and I moved to Denver again.
DN: [indiscernible]
NJ: So I retired out of Denver, Colorado in 1987.
DN: Okay. Did your career affect the family at all, with all those moves?
NJ: Well, you know, it has its plusses and its minuses.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Now they got a really strong background in meeting people in the country, but it was also difficult for them to move frequently as we did.
DN: Did you have to wait sometimes before the end of the school year, I mean did you go on ahead and then they could come, or? Because that happened to a few of the ones we got. [indiscernible]
Female voice: We took the moving trips….
NJ: House hunting trips.
Female voice: House hunting trips.
DN: Uh huh.
Female voice: And then we found a place to live and we moved.
DN: You went with him. That’s good.
Female voice: Yeah. So we could stay together.
DN: So, did you ever do anything for recreation in the field with people that you worked with, or were you always just kind of a lonesome guy out there by yourself?
NJ: Oh no. I did a… Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 10
DN: I don’t mean at the regional level, but in the field stations.
NJ: As far as hunting and…
DN: Golf leagues, bowling, ball teams.
NJ: I uh…
DN: Just socializing, you know, barbeques together with other families and things like that?
NJ: People in the ADC Program were usually pretty close, and we would have, you know, organizational meetings and generally there was some recreation involved in those, and…
DN: Good.
NJ: And when I was in DC, I did quite a bit of hunting and fishing with the folks from the regional office.
DN: That’s good. Okay. So what kind of training did you receive for your jobs, like when you first started?
NJ: Well I started out in North Dakota as a trainee and kind of transferred around and worked with the field people.
DN: What did they teach you? What was the training for, how to set traps, or how to…?
NJ: Well, it did involve, you know, learning to use all of the equipment that was involved in the program…
DN: Okay.
NJ: …And, uh, at that time, you know, we did everything from controlling coyotes to rodents and, you know, even at that time, we were doing rat control in cities. And bird control. Uh, I worked with the regional, or with research and doing field tests of bird control techniques.
DN: Oh, good. So what hours did you work when you were not in the regional offices, like when you were in the field stations?
NJ: You worked as many hours as it took to get the job done. And sometimes that was, well it took most of the week.
DN: Uh huh. And sometimes the days were longer than eight hours. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 11
NJ: Absolutely. Eight-hour day was something that you hardly ever saw. Yeah.
DN: And so what were your day-to-day duties?
NJ: Well, in….
DN: [indiscernible] When you were in the field.
NJ: As a supervisor, you know, I would have a group of field people that did the field work, my responsibility to keep them trained and negotiate the cooperative programs with the states, counties, and the…
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: …Uh, and many of the states’ Game Departments.
DN: Okay. And so, did you ever witness any new service inventions or innovations that you could use in the work you were doing, or?
NJ: We did a lot of field testing of techniques and equipment that research was involved in developing,
DN: …Oooh….
NJ: …Like the M-44 device, which was a piece of equipment used to control coyotes.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And, uh, some new trapping techniques using foot snares for bears and wetting agents to control blackbird populations. Uh, snaring devices to control birds at airports.
DN: Oh, okay.
NJ: Uh….
Female voice: None of them were necessarily invented just for us, but we knew about them, so we bought them for the troops to work with them.
NJ: Well, some of this equipment was actually developed between research and the ADC field people.
DN: Good. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 12
NJ: Yes, the M-44 device was a service-developed piece of equipment. The pocket gopher burrow builder was developed by the Fish and Wildlife Service research and ADC.
DN: Good.
NJ: Uh…The development of aerial operations for controlling coyotes was pretty well developed by the ADC field people.
DN: Do the states do ADC-type work too?
NJ: Uh, no. Not in the states that we had cooperative programs.
DN: Oh. I see. Okay.
NJ: See, the ADC programs in all of the operational states was through cooperative programs. Through, generally we would have a master agreement with one of the state agencies, like the State Department of Agriculture.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: An agreement with their Game Department, and then the other partners in the cooperation or the cooperative program would be the counties, and then the Livestock Associations.
DN: Okay. That’s good.
NJ: So it’s a very involved program.
DN: So did you work with the animals then, yourself? I mean there was your troops, of course, but did they get them out of the traps…of course if they were trapped ones you were getting rid of, you wouldn’t care…What if you ever trapped something that was protected or something. Did that ever happen?
NJ: Oh, you know, we were responsible for seeing to it that everything was done according to regulations, and if animals that were protected were captured, they would be released.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Uh…We did a lot of work, also, with eagles.
DN: Oh, good.
NJ: Because trying to develop a method of reducing eagle depredations on livestock without capturing the eagles. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 13
DN: Uh huh. Could you capture…I mean could you trap an eagle at all?
NJ: Well there are techniques for trapping eagles, but, uh, you know, they were under the Migratory Bird Protection Act, and we spent a lot of time developing techniques so they could be...
DN: Captured…
NJ: …Used snaring devices, mainly, you know, to move them without hurting the eagles.
DN: Okay. Let’s see….How do you feel that the service was perceived by people outside of the agents.
NJ: Well…
DN: Like, do you think we received good support locally, regionally?
NJ: Well, you know, Animal Damage Control was a controversial program.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Uh, all of the work the Fish and Wildlife Service did was controversial also, but ADC was very controversial and there were the folks that didn’t believe in management and then, of course, you have the other side of the picture; the folks that were being damaged, and so we had strong support…
DN: That’s good.
NJ: …Locally.
DN: That’s good. Why would it go to the Department of Agriculture? Do you know? I mean, how did they…
NJ: Well, actually, you know, the work that…
DN: …They rewrote some of the…
NJ: Pardon?
DN: …They rewrote some of the duties of the different departments, or how did that happen?
NJ: The activities we were involved in, much of it anyway, was, involved the Department of Agriculture, involved the State Departments of Agriculture. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 14
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: So, we were closely related with their activities and politics at the time dictated that the program be moved.
DN: Oh, okay. Alright. So what projects were you involved in? This is regular ADC. Or should I say special projects.
NJ: Well, so, I was involved with field testing of many of the control methods.
DN: Oh, that’s good. Okay.
NJ: As developing methods for controlling black birds and corn deprivation, for instance.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And, uh, as I mentioned before, the aerial operations, uh…
DN: Were there any major issues that you had to deal with?
NJ: Well, just about everything we did was an issue with somebody.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And so, as I said, it is just controversial.
DN: And how were these issues resolved then?
NJ: Well, there was techniques, methods developed over time, to involve more of the local people in decisions.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And uh developing state committees that would help coordinate programs within the states, bringing in people that were involved on both sides of the issue, and then developing policy from those; that kind of cooperation.
DN: What do you think was the most pressing issue you had to deal with during your career?
NJ: Well, I suppose. I was involved in the transition of the program to Agriculture.
DN: Uh huh. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 15
NJ: And that was kind of a long, difficult transition. Uh, we had a transition team made up of, I believe it was eight people.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And, uh, we worked through this process of moving all of the program responsibilities and developing and coordination that we had to have with Fish and Wildlife Service after the program was moved to Agriculture.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And, uh, it was uh kind of a long, detailed project.
DN: Has your perspective or opinion on that issue changed with time?
NJ: On uh…
DN: That issue you were just talking about.
NJ: Well as far as whether the program should have been transferred or not? Uh, I believe that what they call Wildlife Services now works with the states and with the Fish and Wildlife Service has been a pretty effective program. I think that it was successful.
DN: That’s good. Okay. Now, can you remember who all your supervisors were?
NJ: Well, my first supervisor was W. O. Nelson.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And, uh, in North Dakota it was William Hickling.
Female voice: Hickling?
NJ: Yeah, William Hickling.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And Roy Henderson. Hickling and Henderson worked together. Henderson was the assistant.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And from there to Mark Wooster in South Dakota. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 16
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Also Don Donahoo.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And in Nebraska, they were still my supervisors.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And then when I transferred to St. Paul again, Ky Falkner was my supervisor.
DN: And then when you went to…
Female voice …Denver?
NJ: Huh?
Female voice: Denver?
NJ: And in Denver it was George Rost. George was working out of Albuquerque at the time. And from Denver to Washington DC, under Jack Berryman.
DN: Jack who?
NJ: Berryman.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And then when I transferred back to Albuquerque, Gordon Hanson was my…
Female voice Gordon Samuelson [editor’s note: It was Gordon Hanson.]
NJ: Yes. He was the Assistant Regional Director for Wildlife and Refuges.
DN: Okay.
NJ: And then when we moved to Denver under the Department of Agriculture, Jim Lee was my supervisor.
DN: Uh huh, okay. Can you remember who was President, Secretary of Interior, or Director of Fish and Wildlife during some of the years when you were with us?
NJ: Uh…[Rogers] C. B. Morton was the Secretary of Interior when I was in Washington. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 17
DN: Okay.
NJ: And the Assistant Secretary was Nathaniel P. Reed.
DN: Oh, okay, I’ve heard that. Okay. How about President of the United States? Do you remember who was that?
NJ: Well, it was Jimmy Car….or it was uh, Nixon, and then Ford, and then Jimmy Carter.
DN: Carter, okay. And then who were some of the people you knew outside of Fish and Wildlife? And did you think that they would be able to work for the service, maybe today, I mean, after they got through with the state or private industry?
NJ: Well, that’s a really good question. I really don’t know. I worked with a lot of people from the state agencies….
DN: Yes, yes.
NJ: …That were excellent people, and I really can’t come up with a name.
DN: Did any of them ever ask you about possibly transferring in to Fish and Wildlife in the state, or?
NJ: Yeah. And in many cases we did hire people from the states…recommend to the program.
DN: That’s how we got some of our good agents too. They’ve been state men first, you know. Uh huh. Okay. How do you think changes in administrations affected the work that we were doing, that you were doing?
NJ: Well, when I went to DC in 1971, Nathaniel Reed was the Assistant Secretary, and he had, at that time, the plan…it was in the works…to eliminate the ADC Program within 6 weeks. And after working there for, I think, over eight years, and we were still a program, and Nat Reed was not with the Department of Interior, it…there were some difficult times with the administration during that period.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Because they had some different goals. And…
DN: Do you remember who the Regional Directors were when you were with us? Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 18
NJ: The?
DN: Regional Directors?
NJ: Okay, uh…boy you’re gonna ask me that…I was trying to think of the Regional Director in Minneapolis at the time, and I…
DN: Was it Harvey Noss?
NJ: No it was before. This was in 1960….
DN: Oh. Bob Burwell. Bob Burwell?
NJ: Burwell. Correct.
DN: Yes. Wonderful guy.
NJ: Yes.
DN: One of the better we had for a long time.
NJ: Yes.
DN: How about Region 2 in Norman? [Albuquerque]
NJ: Well, W. O. Nelson was the original director in Region 2.
DN: Okay, yeah, okay.
NJ: And he was the RD there when…
Female voice: Ky Falkner?
NJ: No, before we left Albuquerque.
DN: The director of the whole region. Well, that’s okay. You know, a lot of us can’t remember, you know. It’s just…
NJ: I should remember him, I worked with him a lot.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And it’s just the name that escaped me right now. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 19
Female voice: He lived in Texas.
NJ: Huh?
Female voice: He lived in…he had a place in Texas.
NJ: No, you’re…no, he lived in our neighborhood right up there.
Female voice: Oh.
DN: If you don’t remember, that’s okay too. But she’s thinking. She will think, and when you think, just tell us.
Female voice: It’s just up the street from us.
NJ: Other Regional Directors?
DN: [Indiscernible] in Region 1?
NJ: Uh…I can’t come up with a name.
DN: Okay, that’s fine. Oh this doesn’t take very long. Now we are going to do perspective, like what was the high point of your career?
NJ: Well, you know…
DN: …if there was one major high point, or else, what you felt was any high point. You know…this is…
NJ: For myself personally?
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Being involved in the, as a very active member of the transition team, moving the program from Fish and Wildlife Service to Agriculture…
DN: Okay…
NJ: …Was a real challenge, very interesting. Uh, the success of doing that was very satisfying to me. It was just because of the enormous challenge that was involved there.
DN: That’s good. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 20
NJ: I, uh, I had some assignments while I was in DC that were very interesting and challenging too.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Uh, like everybody else, you get involved in the congressional hearings and uh see and participate in some very interesting things.
DN: I bet. How about a low point? Did you have any low point in your career?
NJ: Well, yeah, as a matter of fact.
DN: Okay.
NJ: When I transferred to Huron, South Dakota, there was a little difference of opinion between the…uh, Mark Wooster, who was the District Agent at that time, and W. O. Nelson about whether this Johnson boy should be employed or not. The promotions weren’t coming like I needed them to.
DN: [Laughter].
NJ: I went and applied with the Food and Drug Administration and was hired, and once that inquiry came back to the Fish and Wildlife Service, well, things straightened out for me.
DN: Okay…okay. Did you ever have a dangerous or frightening experience when you were working?
NJ: Well, dangerous?
DN: Dangerous, uh huh? Or frightening, but…
NJ: We did a lot of aerial operations, and to me they weren’t frightening necessarily, but you’re always was about that close to it being very dangerous…
DN: Uh huh…
NJ: …And thanks to the training of our pilots and…
DN: Okay. What was your most humorous experience?
NJ: Well, I would think, if you could call it humorous,…
DN: [indiscernible] Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 21
NJ: …The first cooperative meeting I went to involving a 3-county cooperative program in Nebraska…
DN: …Okay…
NJ: …Was held in the Sheraton County Court House, right in the court part of the building.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: And the meeting got just a little bit carried away, and it ended up in a fist fight between ranchers and hound men, [laughter], and me standing back and watching it.
DN: [laughter]…Who won?
NJ: Well, they broke it up before it was really settled.
DN: Okay. What do you like to tell others about your career, about Fish and Wildlife Service, or aren’t you ever asked?
NJ: Well, uh, I think I tell them it’s one of the best jobs in the world.
DN: That’s good.
NJ: It was interesting and challenging, and I got to work with people all over the whole United States, you know.
DN: Yes, that’s true.
NJ: Great people. Farmers and ranchers.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Fisherman and service people; folks in research.
DN: Did a lot of people ever get confused and think you worked for the State DNR?
NJ: All the time.
DN: Yes, yes. Isn’t that something?
NJ: Or with the Forest Service.
DN: I know that I have friends now that I had back in high school, and they’ll say, “well ask her. She used to work for the DNR”, and I’d say, “No I didn’t”, you know. But anyway, Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 22
what were some of the changes that you observed while you talked about those great changes that were happening in the service as far as AVC, PVC, but did you ever notice any other changes? I think that it just kept making forward movements and became a better agency through the years, but…
NJ: Well, we were always in a kind of flux, you know, changing. The programs changed, the responsibilities changed.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Animal Damage Control went, was broadened to do wildlife services where we helped safe agencies with wildlife management programs other than animal damage control. So, yes, the program, the service developed all the time I was working with them, I think.
DN: That’s right. Where do you see the service heading in the next decade?
NJ: You know, I’ve been retired 18 years. My perspective of that is not as good as it could be, I guess. Uh, you know, there’s always going to be a need for wildlife management, and uh there will always be a need for somebody to resolve issues between people and wildlife.
DN: Uh huh.
NJ: Uh, so, you know, as I see it, that’s something that’s going to be or require for a need that’s always going to be there.
DN: Okay. So that’s just about the end, then, of the interview, but do you think that there is anybody else that you can think of, if we haven’t interviewed that we should, you think would be a good interview, would like to be interviewed? You know, when we were talking before about Wes Jones, I was hoping you’d supplied an address for him, because I would have loved to have interviewed Wes. Because he worked a lot with, well, you know, shared office space with law enforcement individuals some time too, you know.
Female Voice Yeah.
NJ: I can’t. You know, of course, I worked with a whole lot of people.
DN: Yes you did. Yeah.
NJ: And, uh, I don’t know everybody that’s on your list, and I can’t think of anybody up in this part of the country that…
DN: Okay, that’s fine. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 23
NJ: …That I can add to it.
DN: Okay. And do you get information now about Fish and Wildlife Service every quarter or every…?
NJ: I get the Refuge.
DN: The Refuge only, huh?
NJ: Yeah.
DN: Yeah.
NJ: Uh…
DN: I meant to give you the memo about the meeting for all official wildlife in September in Portland, Oregon.
NJ: I got that notice.
DN: You did get that, okay. And do you have e-mail?
NJ: Yes.
DN: Do you want to have that, and it’s not in there, or is it?
NJ: Oh, well, I don’t know. I…
DN: Okay. [indiscernible] No it’s not in this directory. And the reason that I want to know these is because Jerry Grover, the one who sends out all this information, if he has an e-mail, he sends to everybody regarding a death of any of the former employees, that type of thing, so if you’ll give me that, I can turn the recorder off, and I will send that in too, so you’ll be sure to be on the list.
NJ: Okay.
DN: And he’s the one that will be also sending out information about the next reunion in Albuquerque.
NJ: I see.
DN: And, of course, what we’re doing now is we’re applying to be a nonprofit organization and having more directors. Oral History - Norm Johnson
Position: Animal Damage Control
Interviewer: Dorothe Norton
Interview Date: 04/22/2005
Page 24
NJ: I see.
DN: So, okay? Well it was a pleasure to meet you, and to meet you, Barb, and I’m just very happy to get to know you, and if you would come to September meeting, you’d enjoy it, I know. Okay, thank you so much.
NJ: You’re welcome.
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| Rating | |
| Title | Norm Johnson oral history transcript |
| Alternative Title | Norm Johnson |
| Creator | Dorothe Norton |
| Description | Norm Johnson oral history interview as conducted by Dorothe Norton. An unidentified female, presumably Mr. Johnson's wife, takes part in the interview at various points. |
| Subject |
History Biography Game wardens |
| Location |
Wisconsin Kansas Georgia North Dakota South Dakota Nebraska Washington, DC New Mexico Colorado |
| Publisher | U. S. Fish & Wildlife Service |
| Contributors | Norton, Dorothe |
| Date of Original | 2005-04-22 |
| Type |
Text |
| Format |
PDF |
| Item ID | Johnson.norm.tcpt |
| Source |
NCTC Archives Museum |
| Language | English |
| Rights | Public domain |
| Audience | General |
| File Size | 84 KB |
| Original Format | Digital |
| Length | 25 p. |
| Transcript | ORAL HISTORY Of Norm Johnson Animal Damage Control Program (Retired) Interviewed by Dorothe Norton On March 22, 2005 Oral History Program U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service National Conservation Training Center Shepherdstown, West Virginia Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 1 DN: ... April 22, 2005 and this interview will be with Norm Johnson and Dorothe Norton. So, we will begin by asking you, Norm, where and when you were born? Date and place? NJ: Well, I was born May 18, 1930… DN: In… NJ: Near Lemington, Wisconsin. DN: Who? NJ: Lemington, Wisconsin. DN: Where is that? NJ: It, uh, is south of Couderay, which is like 50 miles east of where we are right now. We’re in Webster. DN: Oh, okay. NJ: Yeah. Just off of highway 70. DN: Oh, okay. Thank you. And so what were your parents’ names? NJ: My dad’s name was Roy Johnson, and my mother was Thora Johnson. DN: What were their education and their jobs? NJ: My father was a farmer. DN: Okay. NJ: My mother was a housewife. DN: That’s good. Did you have a large family? NJ: I had two brothers and one sister. DN: That’s not too bad. NJ: Nope. DN: Average. Vick LaValasavick, who is a retired agent now in Duluth, was the oldest of 15. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 2 NJ: Well. DN: His mother was a busy lady. NJ: My grandmother had 15 children. DN: Did she really? Yeah. Well, back then, it did not seem to be as bad. So where did you spend your early years, then? In that area, always, or? NJ: No, at a very young age, my father died. DN: Oh. NJ: And we moved to St. Croix Falls. DN: Oh, okay. NJ: So I grew up in St. Croix Falls. DN: Okay. And so, what did you do your early years? Did you have any hobbies, or read a lot, or? NJ: Well, I was very active in the Boy Scouts. DN: Good. NJ: And other hobbies were hunting and fishing. DN: Uh huh, good. So you did hunt and fish as a kid then? NJ: Oh yes. DN: Uh huh. Did you have your brothers teach you, or just? NJ: No, I had to kinda to gather that up by myself. DN: Well, that good. Uh huh. Okay. So, did you have any jobs then before you graduated in high school? NJ: Oh yes. I worked part of the time in a filling station. DN: Good. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 3 NJ: And I worked five years in a bakery. DN: Oh. NJ: All through high school. DN: Good. NJ: And one year after high school. DN: That’s good. So, then what high school did you graduate from? NJ: St. Croix Falls. DN: In what year? NJ: 1948. DN: 1948. Okay. And then, from there, did you go to college? NJ: No I didn’t. I worked one year with the bakery and then I worked two years as…in a meat cutting shop, and then I was drafted. DN: Oh, you were drafted, okay. NJ: During the Korean War. DN: Which service did you? NJ: Army. I was in the Army Airborne. DN: Okay, and so you went in there about 1950? NJ: I went in 1951, yes. DN: Uh huh. And how many years? NJ: Two years. DN: Two years. NJ: I was out in 195l; May of 1953. DN: What were your duty stations? Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 4 NJ: Basic training in Fort Riley, Kansas, and the rest of the time I was at Fort Benning, Georgia. DN: Uh huh, and what did you do? NJ: I was in the airborne artillery, and we just trained as paratroopers. DN: Okay. Did you ever…You weren’t ever overseas, then? NJ: No. No. We did not, we didn’t leave the country. DN: So the military service didn’t relate in any way to your employment with Fish and Wildlife, did it? NJ: No. DN: Okay. Did you ever get any decorations for being excellent at anything, or? NJ: In the military? DN: Uh huh. NJ: Only through basic training. I was given a… DN: You were probably the smartest kid in the class. (laughter) Okay, so when you got out then, did you qualify under the GI Bill to go back to school, or go to college, I should say? NJ: Yes I did. Yeah. On the GI Bill. DN: Pardon me? NJ: On the GI Bill. DN: Good, that’s very good. NJ: Uh huh. DN: And where did you go to college? NJ: Well, the first two years I was at River Falls. DN: Oh, okay. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 5 NJ: And then I transferred to the University of Minnesota until we couldn’t afford that anymore. We were married at the time. DN: Okay. NJ: And so I transferred back to River Falls and graduated there in 1958. DN: What was your degree? NJ: Biology major… DN: Biology? NJ: Biology major and a chemistry minor. DN: Okay. Did you go on then, trying to get a Master’s, or? NJ: No I didn’t. After I graduated from college, I worked one fall with the Wisconsin State Department of Conservation, as they called at that time. DN: Uh huh. NJ: . . . As a Game Warden. DN: Oh. Okay. NJ: And that was just a 3-month assignment. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And after I completed that, I was hired by the Fish and Wildlife Service. DN: Oh. Well that’s good. NJ: When I was at the University of Minnesota, I worked one summer for the Fish and Wildlife Service with Animal Damage Control. DN: Okay. NJ: It was just a summer assignment. DN: Uh Huh. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 6 NJ: So then when I went off looking for employment, I went back to Fish and Wildlife and…. DN: Okay. Well, before we leave your personal information, I want to know when, and where, and how you met your wife. NJ: Well, I met her when she was six years old. DN: Oh. You both lived in the same area, huh? NJ: She lived across the alley from us. DN: Oh, isn’t that nice. That’s how the Duncan’s are. They’ve got pictures of them when they were just babies, both in the same frame, from a little town…Seneca, or something, South Dakota. NJ: Oh, is that right? DN: Well, that’s nice. Isn’t that nice? So you knew each other a long time. NJ: Oh yes. DN: And then when and where did you get married? NJ: We got married in 1954 at the Little Brown Church in Iowa. DN: Oh. The Little Brown Church, yeah, I’ve heard…I have some friends that did too, but that’s cute. Okay. Do you have any children? NJ: We have two boys and two girls. DN: And what are they doing now? Just the children, not the grandchildren? NJ: The oldest son is a chemical engineer and he lives in Maryland. DN: Okay. NJ: And the younger son is a…does carpenter work, and he lives in this area. DN: Okay. NJ: And the next one down is our daughter who lives in Phoenix and is a teacher. DN: Uh hum. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 7 NJ: And the youngest daughter lives in San Diego and she’s a biochemist. DN: Oh, isn’t that nice. You have all these places you can go on vacation. NJ: Right. DN: Yeah, but I bet you kind of miss them sometimes, too, don’t you…Or they probably have been there so long now that you get kind of used to it. Grant and Stew probably…. NJ: We only have two grandchildren. DN: Okay. NJ: And they’re in Phoenix. DN: It’s nice to go there in the winter. NJ: Yeah. DN: Okay, well then so you started with the Fish and Wildlife in 19… NJ: …59… DN: …59… NJ: Yeah, February of 1959. DN: Okay. And you came on as a… NJ: I was a trainee in what was called P&RC, or Predator and Rodent Control, at that time… DN: Okay… NJ: …And my first assignment was Bismarck, North Dakota. DN: Oh boy. Okay. And so your first professional position really was…would you consider what you did for State of Iowa your first real job, where you were getting paid money and …? NJ: For who? DN: For the State of Wisconsin. I’m sorry. I said Minnesota. NJ: Yes, that’s my first real job. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 8 DN: Okay, but then you came to Fish and Wildlife, okay. And so where did you go from there? NJ: From Bismarck? DN: Uh huh. NJ: I was transferred to Huron, South Dakota. DN: Okay. NJ: As an Assistant District Agents, they called them then. DN: Okay. NJ: And I was there for two years, not quite two years, and then transferred to North Platte, Nebraska. DN: Okay. NJ: And the same type of a job, a supervisory position with Predator and Rodent Control. And from there I transferred to St. Paul and worked Minnesota and Wisconsin as a State Supervisor in Animal Damage Control, they called it then. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And then I transferred to Denver, Colorado… DN: Uh huh. NJ: As a state supervisor for the Animal Damage Control Program there. DN: Just in the state of Colorado? That’s a big state. NJ: That was a pretty good sized program. We had about 50 employees at that time. And from there I transferred to Washington. Uh, I was, uh, with the Animal Damage Control Program there also. And I was in DC until 1979. It would be from 1971 until 79. DN: Uh huh. NJ: I transferred to Albuquerque. DN: You did get around. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 9 NJ: I was a Regional Supervisor for Region 2. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And then in 1985 the program was transferred out of the Fish and Wildlife Service and I moved to Denver again. DN: [indiscernible] NJ: So I retired out of Denver, Colorado in 1987. DN: Okay. Did your career affect the family at all, with all those moves? NJ: Well, you know, it has its plusses and its minuses. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Now they got a really strong background in meeting people in the country, but it was also difficult for them to move frequently as we did. DN: Did you have to wait sometimes before the end of the school year, I mean did you go on ahead and then they could come, or? Because that happened to a few of the ones we got. [indiscernible] Female voice: We took the moving trips…. NJ: House hunting trips. Female voice: House hunting trips. DN: Uh huh. Female voice: And then we found a place to live and we moved. DN: You went with him. That’s good. Female voice: Yeah. So we could stay together. DN: So, did you ever do anything for recreation in the field with people that you worked with, or were you always just kind of a lonesome guy out there by yourself? NJ: Oh no. I did a… Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 10 DN: I don’t mean at the regional level, but in the field stations. NJ: As far as hunting and… DN: Golf leagues, bowling, ball teams. NJ: I uh… DN: Just socializing, you know, barbeques together with other families and things like that? NJ: People in the ADC Program were usually pretty close, and we would have, you know, organizational meetings and generally there was some recreation involved in those, and… DN: Good. NJ: And when I was in DC, I did quite a bit of hunting and fishing with the folks from the regional office. DN: That’s good. Okay. So what kind of training did you receive for your jobs, like when you first started? NJ: Well I started out in North Dakota as a trainee and kind of transferred around and worked with the field people. DN: What did they teach you? What was the training for, how to set traps, or how to…? NJ: Well, it did involve, you know, learning to use all of the equipment that was involved in the program… DN: Okay. NJ: …And, uh, at that time, you know, we did everything from controlling coyotes to rodents and, you know, even at that time, we were doing rat control in cities. And bird control. Uh, I worked with the regional, or with research and doing field tests of bird control techniques. DN: Oh, good. So what hours did you work when you were not in the regional offices, like when you were in the field stations? NJ: You worked as many hours as it took to get the job done. And sometimes that was, well it took most of the week. DN: Uh huh. And sometimes the days were longer than eight hours. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 11 NJ: Absolutely. Eight-hour day was something that you hardly ever saw. Yeah. DN: And so what were your day-to-day duties? NJ: Well, in…. DN: [indiscernible] When you were in the field. NJ: As a supervisor, you know, I would have a group of field people that did the field work, my responsibility to keep them trained and negotiate the cooperative programs with the states, counties, and the… DN: Uh huh. NJ: …Uh, and many of the states’ Game Departments. DN: Okay. And so, did you ever witness any new service inventions or innovations that you could use in the work you were doing, or? NJ: We did a lot of field testing of techniques and equipment that research was involved in developing, DN: …Oooh…. NJ: …Like the M-44 device, which was a piece of equipment used to control coyotes. DN: Okay. NJ: And, uh, some new trapping techniques using foot snares for bears and wetting agents to control blackbird populations. Uh, snaring devices to control birds at airports. DN: Oh, okay. NJ: Uh…. Female voice: None of them were necessarily invented just for us, but we knew about them, so we bought them for the troops to work with them. NJ: Well, some of this equipment was actually developed between research and the ADC field people. DN: Good. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 12 NJ: Yes, the M-44 device was a service-developed piece of equipment. The pocket gopher burrow builder was developed by the Fish and Wildlife Service research and ADC. DN: Good. NJ: Uh…The development of aerial operations for controlling coyotes was pretty well developed by the ADC field people. DN: Do the states do ADC-type work too? NJ: Uh, no. Not in the states that we had cooperative programs. DN: Oh. I see. Okay. NJ: See, the ADC programs in all of the operational states was through cooperative programs. Through, generally we would have a master agreement with one of the state agencies, like the State Department of Agriculture. DN: Uh huh. NJ: An agreement with their Game Department, and then the other partners in the cooperation or the cooperative program would be the counties, and then the Livestock Associations. DN: Okay. That’s good. NJ: So it’s a very involved program. DN: So did you work with the animals then, yourself? I mean there was your troops, of course, but did they get them out of the traps…of course if they were trapped ones you were getting rid of, you wouldn’t care…What if you ever trapped something that was protected or something. Did that ever happen? NJ: Oh, you know, we were responsible for seeing to it that everything was done according to regulations, and if animals that were protected were captured, they would be released. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Uh…We did a lot of work, also, with eagles. DN: Oh, good. NJ: Because trying to develop a method of reducing eagle depredations on livestock without capturing the eagles. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 13 DN: Uh huh. Could you capture…I mean could you trap an eagle at all? NJ: Well there are techniques for trapping eagles, but, uh, you know, they were under the Migratory Bird Protection Act, and we spent a lot of time developing techniques so they could be... DN: Captured… NJ: …Used snaring devices, mainly, you know, to move them without hurting the eagles. DN: Okay. Let’s see….How do you feel that the service was perceived by people outside of the agents. NJ: Well… DN: Like, do you think we received good support locally, regionally? NJ: Well, you know, Animal Damage Control was a controversial program. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Uh, all of the work the Fish and Wildlife Service did was controversial also, but ADC was very controversial and there were the folks that didn’t believe in management and then, of course, you have the other side of the picture; the folks that were being damaged, and so we had strong support… DN: That’s good. NJ: …Locally. DN: That’s good. Why would it go to the Department of Agriculture? Do you know? I mean, how did they… NJ: Well, actually, you know, the work that… DN: …They rewrote some of the… NJ: Pardon? DN: …They rewrote some of the duties of the different departments, or how did that happen? NJ: The activities we were involved in, much of it anyway, was, involved the Department of Agriculture, involved the State Departments of Agriculture. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 14 DN: Uh huh. NJ: So, we were closely related with their activities and politics at the time dictated that the program be moved. DN: Oh, okay. Alright. So what projects were you involved in? This is regular ADC. Or should I say special projects. NJ: Well, so, I was involved with field testing of many of the control methods. DN: Oh, that’s good. Okay. NJ: As developing methods for controlling black birds and corn deprivation, for instance. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And, uh, as I mentioned before, the aerial operations, uh… DN: Were there any major issues that you had to deal with? NJ: Well, just about everything we did was an issue with somebody. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And so, as I said, it is just controversial. DN: And how were these issues resolved then? NJ: Well, there was techniques, methods developed over time, to involve more of the local people in decisions. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And uh developing state committees that would help coordinate programs within the states, bringing in people that were involved on both sides of the issue, and then developing policy from those; that kind of cooperation. DN: What do you think was the most pressing issue you had to deal with during your career? NJ: Well, I suppose. I was involved in the transition of the program to Agriculture. DN: Uh huh. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 15 NJ: And that was kind of a long, difficult transition. Uh, we had a transition team made up of, I believe it was eight people. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And, uh, we worked through this process of moving all of the program responsibilities and developing and coordination that we had to have with Fish and Wildlife Service after the program was moved to Agriculture. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And, uh, it was uh kind of a long, detailed project. DN: Has your perspective or opinion on that issue changed with time? NJ: On uh… DN: That issue you were just talking about. NJ: Well as far as whether the program should have been transferred or not? Uh, I believe that what they call Wildlife Services now works with the states and with the Fish and Wildlife Service has been a pretty effective program. I think that it was successful. DN: That’s good. Okay. Now, can you remember who all your supervisors were? NJ: Well, my first supervisor was W. O. Nelson. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And, uh, in North Dakota it was William Hickling. Female voice: Hickling? NJ: Yeah, William Hickling. DN: Okay. NJ: And Roy Henderson. Hickling and Henderson worked together. Henderson was the assistant. DN: Okay. NJ: And from there to Mark Wooster in South Dakota. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 16 DN: Uh huh. NJ: Also Don Donahoo. DN: Okay. NJ: And in Nebraska, they were still my supervisors. DN: Okay. NJ: And then when I transferred to St. Paul again, Ky Falkner was my supervisor. DN: And then when you went to… Female voice …Denver? NJ: Huh? Female voice: Denver? NJ: And in Denver it was George Rost. George was working out of Albuquerque at the time. And from Denver to Washington DC, under Jack Berryman. DN: Jack who? NJ: Berryman. DN: Okay. NJ: And then when I transferred back to Albuquerque, Gordon Hanson was my… Female voice Gordon Samuelson [editor’s note: It was Gordon Hanson.] NJ: Yes. He was the Assistant Regional Director for Wildlife and Refuges. DN: Okay. NJ: And then when we moved to Denver under the Department of Agriculture, Jim Lee was my supervisor. DN: Uh huh, okay. Can you remember who was President, Secretary of Interior, or Director of Fish and Wildlife during some of the years when you were with us? NJ: Uh…[Rogers] C. B. Morton was the Secretary of Interior when I was in Washington. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 17 DN: Okay. NJ: And the Assistant Secretary was Nathaniel P. Reed. DN: Oh, okay, I’ve heard that. Okay. How about President of the United States? Do you remember who was that? NJ: Well, it was Jimmy Car….or it was uh, Nixon, and then Ford, and then Jimmy Carter. DN: Carter, okay. And then who were some of the people you knew outside of Fish and Wildlife? And did you think that they would be able to work for the service, maybe today, I mean, after they got through with the state or private industry? NJ: Well, that’s a really good question. I really don’t know. I worked with a lot of people from the state agencies…. DN: Yes, yes. NJ: …That were excellent people, and I really can’t come up with a name. DN: Did any of them ever ask you about possibly transferring in to Fish and Wildlife in the state, or? NJ: Yeah. And in many cases we did hire people from the states…recommend to the program. DN: That’s how we got some of our good agents too. They’ve been state men first, you know. Uh huh. Okay. How do you think changes in administrations affected the work that we were doing, that you were doing? NJ: Well, when I went to DC in 1971, Nathaniel Reed was the Assistant Secretary, and he had, at that time, the plan…it was in the works…to eliminate the ADC Program within 6 weeks. And after working there for, I think, over eight years, and we were still a program, and Nat Reed was not with the Department of Interior, it…there were some difficult times with the administration during that period. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Because they had some different goals. And… DN: Do you remember who the Regional Directors were when you were with us? Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 18 NJ: The? DN: Regional Directors? NJ: Okay, uh…boy you’re gonna ask me that…I was trying to think of the Regional Director in Minneapolis at the time, and I… DN: Was it Harvey Noss? NJ: No it was before. This was in 1960…. DN: Oh. Bob Burwell. Bob Burwell? NJ: Burwell. Correct. DN: Yes. Wonderful guy. NJ: Yes. DN: One of the better we had for a long time. NJ: Yes. DN: How about Region 2 in Norman? [Albuquerque] NJ: Well, W. O. Nelson was the original director in Region 2. DN: Okay, yeah, okay. NJ: And he was the RD there when… Female voice: Ky Falkner? NJ: No, before we left Albuquerque. DN: The director of the whole region. Well, that’s okay. You know, a lot of us can’t remember, you know. It’s just… NJ: I should remember him, I worked with him a lot. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And it’s just the name that escaped me right now. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 19 Female voice: He lived in Texas. NJ: Huh? Female voice: He lived in…he had a place in Texas. NJ: No, you’re…no, he lived in our neighborhood right up there. Female voice: Oh. DN: If you don’t remember, that’s okay too. But she’s thinking. She will think, and when you think, just tell us. Female voice: It’s just up the street from us. NJ: Other Regional Directors? DN: [Indiscernible] in Region 1? NJ: Uh…I can’t come up with a name. DN: Okay, that’s fine. Oh this doesn’t take very long. Now we are going to do perspective, like what was the high point of your career? NJ: Well, you know… DN: …if there was one major high point, or else, what you felt was any high point. You know…this is… NJ: For myself personally? DN: Uh huh. NJ: Being involved in the, as a very active member of the transition team, moving the program from Fish and Wildlife Service to Agriculture… DN: Okay… NJ: …Was a real challenge, very interesting. Uh, the success of doing that was very satisfying to me. It was just because of the enormous challenge that was involved there. DN: That’s good. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 20 NJ: I, uh, I had some assignments while I was in DC that were very interesting and challenging too. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Uh, like everybody else, you get involved in the congressional hearings and uh see and participate in some very interesting things. DN: I bet. How about a low point? Did you have any low point in your career? NJ: Well, yeah, as a matter of fact. DN: Okay. NJ: When I transferred to Huron, South Dakota, there was a little difference of opinion between the…uh, Mark Wooster, who was the District Agent at that time, and W. O. Nelson about whether this Johnson boy should be employed or not. The promotions weren’t coming like I needed them to. DN: [Laughter]. NJ: I went and applied with the Food and Drug Administration and was hired, and once that inquiry came back to the Fish and Wildlife Service, well, things straightened out for me. DN: Okay…okay. Did you ever have a dangerous or frightening experience when you were working? NJ: Well, dangerous? DN: Dangerous, uh huh? Or frightening, but… NJ: We did a lot of aerial operations, and to me they weren’t frightening necessarily, but you’re always was about that close to it being very dangerous… DN: Uh huh… NJ: …And thanks to the training of our pilots and… DN: Okay. What was your most humorous experience? NJ: Well, I would think, if you could call it humorous,… DN: [indiscernible] Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 21 NJ: …The first cooperative meeting I went to involving a 3-county cooperative program in Nebraska… DN: …Okay… NJ: …Was held in the Sheraton County Court House, right in the court part of the building. DN: Uh huh. NJ: And the meeting got just a little bit carried away, and it ended up in a fist fight between ranchers and hound men, [laughter], and me standing back and watching it. DN: [laughter]…Who won? NJ: Well, they broke it up before it was really settled. DN: Okay. What do you like to tell others about your career, about Fish and Wildlife Service, or aren’t you ever asked? NJ: Well, uh, I think I tell them it’s one of the best jobs in the world. DN: That’s good. NJ: It was interesting and challenging, and I got to work with people all over the whole United States, you know. DN: Yes, that’s true. NJ: Great people. Farmers and ranchers. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Fisherman and service people; folks in research. DN: Did a lot of people ever get confused and think you worked for the State DNR? NJ: All the time. DN: Yes, yes. Isn’t that something? NJ: Or with the Forest Service. DN: I know that I have friends now that I had back in high school, and they’ll say, “well ask her. She used to work for the DNR”, and I’d say, “No I didn’t”, you know. But anyway, Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 22 what were some of the changes that you observed while you talked about those great changes that were happening in the service as far as AVC, PVC, but did you ever notice any other changes? I think that it just kept making forward movements and became a better agency through the years, but… NJ: Well, we were always in a kind of flux, you know, changing. The programs changed, the responsibilities changed. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Animal Damage Control went, was broadened to do wildlife services where we helped safe agencies with wildlife management programs other than animal damage control. So, yes, the program, the service developed all the time I was working with them, I think. DN: That’s right. Where do you see the service heading in the next decade? NJ: You know, I’ve been retired 18 years. My perspective of that is not as good as it could be, I guess. Uh, you know, there’s always going to be a need for wildlife management, and uh there will always be a need for somebody to resolve issues between people and wildlife. DN: Uh huh. NJ: Uh, so, you know, as I see it, that’s something that’s going to be or require for a need that’s always going to be there. DN: Okay. So that’s just about the end, then, of the interview, but do you think that there is anybody else that you can think of, if we haven’t interviewed that we should, you think would be a good interview, would like to be interviewed? You know, when we were talking before about Wes Jones, I was hoping you’d supplied an address for him, because I would have loved to have interviewed Wes. Because he worked a lot with, well, you know, shared office space with law enforcement individuals some time too, you know. Female Voice Yeah. NJ: I can’t. You know, of course, I worked with a whole lot of people. DN: Yes you did. Yeah. NJ: And, uh, I don’t know everybody that’s on your list, and I can’t think of anybody up in this part of the country that… DN: Okay, that’s fine. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 23 NJ: …That I can add to it. DN: Okay. And do you get information now about Fish and Wildlife Service every quarter or every…? NJ: I get the Refuge. DN: The Refuge only, huh? NJ: Yeah. DN: Yeah. NJ: Uh… DN: I meant to give you the memo about the meeting for all official wildlife in September in Portland, Oregon. NJ: I got that notice. DN: You did get that, okay. And do you have e-mail? NJ: Yes. DN: Do you want to have that, and it’s not in there, or is it? NJ: Oh, well, I don’t know. I… DN: Okay. [indiscernible] No it’s not in this directory. And the reason that I want to know these is because Jerry Grover, the one who sends out all this information, if he has an e-mail, he sends to everybody regarding a death of any of the former employees, that type of thing, so if you’ll give me that, I can turn the recorder off, and I will send that in too, so you’ll be sure to be on the list. NJ: Okay. DN: And he’s the one that will be also sending out information about the next reunion in Albuquerque. NJ: I see. DN: And, of course, what we’re doing now is we’re applying to be a nonprofit organization and having more directors. Oral History - Norm Johnson Position: Animal Damage Control Interviewer: Dorothe Norton Interview Date: 04/22/2005 Page 24 NJ: I see. DN: So, okay? Well it was a pleasure to meet you, and to meet you, Barb, and I’m just very happy to get to know you, and if you would come to September meeting, you’d enjoy it, I know. Okay, thank you so much. NJ: You’re welcome. |
| Images Source File Name | 10778.pdf |
| Date created | 2012-12-12 |
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