Robert Krear oral history transcript

              INTERVIEW WITH DR. ROBERT KREAR

BY ROGER KAYE NOVEMBER 21, 2002

MR. KAYE: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Bob Krear. The subject will be

his involvement in the 1956 Murie Expedition of the Sheenjeck River and the Arctic

Refuge. Bob, thanks for providing this interview. Maybe you could first start off with

talking about how you happened to become involved with the Muries, and got invited in

the 1956 Sheenjeck Expedition.

DR. KREAR: I met the Muries first in 1948, I guess, when I was still a Forestry student

at Penn State. I was traveling west to the State of Washington and dropped off so that I

could meet them. Since then, I practically became a member of their family. In 1949 I

began my Masters work at the University of Wyoming. On almost every holiday after

that I was up at Moose, at their place. I was up there for Thanksgiving and for

Christmas. Their son, Martin Murie and I both served together in the Tenth Mountain

Division during the War. That’s another reason why I got to meet them. I was a

Naturalist at Grand Teton Park for three seasons. Of course that was near their

homestead. I got to see them often. In 1951 I was on an expedition to Ungaba, which is

near Quebec and Labrador on the eastern side of Hudson Bay. Olaus apparently

considered that qualified experience to join him on the Arctic Wildlife Range. He also was

instrumental in my getting a job as a Biologist, first doing research on the [unintelligible]

Islands in 1953. So I had signed up to go back to the Purpolip [sounds like] Islands in

1956. Mardie Murie called me up on the phone and I told her my plans. She said, “Why

don’t you come with us up to the Arctic Range, up to the Brooks Range”? So I changed

my mind immediately, and then essentially felt like I was on the expedition.

MR. KAYE: Interesting. Maybe in just a few sentences, can you summarize your career

after the Murie Expedition, and where you ended up?

DR. KREAR: After the Murie Expediton I went right down to the University of

Colorado and began work on my Doctorate. I finished that in 1965. I took nine years

getting that Doctorate done. But I interrupted it numerous times. One of those times

was to go out to the Aleutian Islands, and Manchitka to do research on the Sea Otters. I

worked seasonally with the Park Service several times. I worked for fifteen years as a

seasonal professional naturalist at eight different National Parks. My main job of course

was as a professor of Biology at [unintelligible] University. I ended up at Michigan Tech

University on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. I liked a great variety in my life.

MR. KAYE: Yes. Ok. What I’d like to get to here is the Muries, and some of the other

people who were instrumental in establishing the Refuge. I’ll ask you about them. And

particularly, I am interested in your impressions on the beliefs that Olaus and Mardie

held about this area that became the Arctic Refuge, and what their hope was for it’s

future.

DR. KREAR: Let me first give you my impressions that the Muries had of the area up

there. I think this was a second honeymoon for them. It was a return to the wilderness

country they had traveled in by dogsled in 1922 I believe, during their wedding

honeymoon. They went down the Yukon, up at Anvek and up to Koyuakuk. My

impression was that they were supremely happy up there in the Sheenjeck Valley. And

Olaus was certainly back in his element. After we moved to Lash Lake, our second camp,

the two of them put backpacks on their backs and hiked up the Sheenjeck to be by

themselves for several days. I believe that was to recapture the memories of their

honeymoon together, west of the Brooks Range about thirty-four years earlier, up the

Koyakuk. Your other question was what?

MR. KAYE: What about their hopes for the place? What was their, what motivated

them to work for protecting this area as wilderness?

DR. KREAR: It was in 1953 that Olaus took a flight over the whole Brooks Range area.

They selected from the air the Sheenjeck River Valley as a possible source for an

expedition. That was the only part of the Brooks Range that was left unexploited. After

we got there, we had no reason to believe that he had made a bad choice. There was no

human activity in the area, except for the Indians of course. But their hopes were just to

preserve some of the…they knew that the Grizzly Bear was being exploited, and the

Wolverine, and in some areas, the Caribou. They wanted an area where those animals

could be at peace so to speak.

MR. KAYE: William O. Douglas was there for a period when you were there. Tell me

about your impression of him and what interested him in this area. Why did he come up

to get involved in this campaign?

DR. KREAR: William Douglas and Olaus Murie were on the canal hike near Washington,

D.C., I forget the name of it now. They were trying to preserve an old canal. [C&O

Canal] Olaus got acquainted with Douglas at that time. Because of that he invited him to

visit us up there at the Brooks Range. Douglas and his wife Mercy came in and spent

about a week with us. They spent most of their time with Olaus and Mardie so I was not

privy to most of their conversations. Nor do I think that Brian Kessler or Joyce Sheller

had a chance to talk much with them. [name accuracy?] You might ask Brian about that.

I did take Douglas fishing for Grayling once, and he mentioned that in his book titled My

Wilderness. He caught fish by the way. I found him to be very personable. Of course I

preferred to listen to him around the campfire. I was somewhat overwhelmed with the

man of his experience. He told of us his recent experiences in the Soviet Union. He had

been over there recently. He was very much interested in this project.

MR. KAYE: In what way? What was his hope for this place?

DR. KREAR: He was very much a wilderness person himself. He was a good mountain

climber and that sort of thing. He knew it was pretty much an unchanged, unexploited.

There was no commercialization up there yet and he wanted to keep it that way. His

ideas were almost identical to those of Olaus Muries.

MR. KAYE: I found in the Archives a letter that you wrote in 1980. Actually, you

addressed it to then President Jimmy Carter, protesting the renaming of the Arctic Refuge

after William O. Douglas. It of course temporarily had that name. It’s a very interesting

issue. I know that Olaus and Mardie opposed place names in the area too. Tell me about

what your thought was, related to why you were against place naming. You mentioned in

that letter that you believe William O. Douglas was against naming places in the

wilderness as well.

DR. KREAR: That was very interesting. Around a campfire one night, he and Olaus

were discussing that very thing. I don’t know if I brought it up or not. But once when I

was doing my research over on [sounds like] Ungada, there was a nearby camp of

Geologists and they told me that the head of our lake which was Menehet Lake, that there

was a rapid entering the lake called Murie Rapids. I told Olaus about that and he was

pretty much disappointed to hear that because he did not believe in the naming of

beautiful, natural areas after people. Certainly, Douglas was against this too. I heard him

agree with Olaus on it. They both believed that often it was done for political reasons

and for political persons whose names mean nothing to the generations that follow. They

often rather cheapen the significance of the object or area. Many times such areas have

been named after people who have never there or never had anything to do with the area,

such as perhaps the Molly Beatty Wilderness in Anwar. Natural restrictive names

always seem best when applicable. That’s pretty much the thoughts of all of us on that

expedition.

MR. KAYE: In what sense, do you think, that Douglas and the Muries felt it cheapened

the area? What place names like people did they represent they resisted?

DR. KREAR: They were mostly concerned that politicians would name areas for

their…to perpetuate their name and that sort of thing. Olaus was very much in favor of

natural names. He would even have accepted Indian names. What he preferred mostly

were descriptive names for the area rather than a person’s name given to the area.

MR. KAYE: Olaus is often described as a humble person. Is it perhaps that maybe he

and Douglas as a result of humility that the place shouldn’t be named after them?

DR. KREAR: I would agree with that. Olaus was a very humble person. He was very

intelligent, very quite, very unassuming. His personality was unique as far as that is

concerned.

MR. KAYE: What was it like to be in the field with him?

DR. KREAR: Wonderful. Wonderful. He was interested in everything; the plants and

the animals. Of course, one of his favorite things was animal tracks, and making casts of

the tracks and that sort of thing. While we were up there in the Brooks Range he had us

all looking for Wolf tracks, and the tracks of any other animals. If we found something

interesting he would immediately go to the area. He always carried his plaster of paris

with him, and poor it in the tracks. Olaus was a naturalist, a complete naturalist I would

say.

MR. KAYE: What other things did Olaus and Douglas talk about, say over the campfire

on evenings and so on?

DR. KREAR: They talked a little bit about Douglas’ latest experience over in the Soviet

Union, but I can’t remember much about that. Otherwise, that’s about all I can tell you

about that.

MR. KAYE: Yes, it was a long time ago.

DR. KREAR: It was a long time ago, yeah.

MR. KAYE: Do you recall anything that the Muries, either Olaus or Mardie said maybe

about Aldo Leopold or Bob Marshall, Howard Zonheizer, Henry Shore, other people that

indicated that some of the Murie ideas may have been influenced by these people?

DR. KREAR: Let’s think about Bob Marshall and his experience in the Brooks Range

which was about in 1930, I guess.

MR. KREAR: Tell me, if you remember, what they said about Bob Marshall. What was

the context?

DR. KREAR: They told me that he had visited them at Moose, Wyoming. They had

great respect for him as a pioneer in the wilderness movement. They mentioned that Bob

was instrumental in getting them involved in the Wilderness Society. Of course, Olaus

became the President in 1957. Mardie has an especially fond memory of Bob when he

told her that she was fondly remembered on the Koyukuk as the most beautiful that had

ever passed through there.

MR. KAYE: Oh!

DR. KREAR: That was kind of interesting! That’s about all I remember about Bob

Marshall. I never had the pleasure of meeting him. I met his brother Jim.

MR. KAYE: How about Leopold? Did the Muries talk about Leopold at all?

DR. KREAR: A little yes, but again, I can’t tell you much about it.

MR. KAYE: Are they any other authors or writers that the Muries might have

mentioned that stick out in your mind after all of these years?

DR. KREAR: No, I’m afraid not. Somebody else might be able to do better for you on

that.

MR. KAYE: O.K. That was a long time ago. Another question: The Muries and other

people, founders, that were involved with them, often described wildlife, but it was

usually in the context of wildness. Do you have a sense of how or why wildness was so

important to them? Why was it such a predominant theme in the campaign to establish

the refuge?

DR. KREAR: Up there in the Sheenjeck Valley we saw that the Grizzly’s had very little

fear of us. The Wolves came right into camp once. Foxes and the bird life was very tame.

They had never had any bad experiences with people. I guess that was one of the things

that Olaus Murie hoped to preserve in a global wildlife refuge. I don’t know what else to

say about that.

MR. KAYE: O.K. You mentioned ‘intangible values’, and in fact, you know Olaus used

that term quiet a bit in his writings. In fact, in his testimony before a Senate Committee

he talked about saving the intangible values as being one of the purposes of establishing

the Arctic Range. What do you think he meant by intangible values?

DR. KREAR: I guess it was just to be surrounded for three months by that great,

pristine arctic beauty, and that incredible wildlife that was almost constantly in sight. It

had to have affected us all deeply. It something that you couldn’t touch, couldn’t

describe. It did affect us. We didn’t want any contact with the outside world. We twice

turned down offers for the loan of two-way radios. Olaus and Mardie and all of us, we

wanted the feeling of peace that could come only by being totally isolated in what was

going on in the world. Since we reverted to the blessings of primeval nature. We even

disliked the occasional planes that flew over the route up to Keptovick and the dew line

installations. There were several visitations while we were there; people that wanted to

visit Olaus, and especially when Justice Douglas was there some reporters came up. We

didn’t exactly favor that sort of thing, but those interruptions were short though. It was

just being isolated and living the feelings of nature. I am not very good at expressing it.

Olaus considered it to be a spiritual, as well as a religious thing. Olaus, I know that Olaus

was not a religious person; Mardie was. But as to spiritual values, one benefits. It has to

be an individual thing as far as I am concerned. I can only speak for myself. I can say

that I am not a religious person, but yet I do have those spiritual values when I am out in

the wilderness. I think you described it best.

MR. KAYE: O.K. So, is it a secular thing for you, is it a relationship with something?

DR. KREAR: It’s definitely a secular thing. It’s a thing I can’t describe. It’s a great

gratitude for being able to feel the influence of the wilderness.

MR. KAYE: O.K. Another thing that I was going to ask; “evolution” is a word that I see

reoccurring through Olaus’ writings. He uses it in relationship both to human beings and

to the natural world. Do you have a sense of what this concept of evolution meant to

him? Why it was significant?

DR. KREAR: As near as I can figure, it is something like this; the value of wilderness has

affected the evolution of human attitudes towards wilderness preservation. I think that

the changes that can or will take place are profound, especially in the minds of confirmed

urbanites like members of the U. S. Congress. Urbanites lead a totally artificial way of

life in my opinion. And wilderness confronts one with the beauty of reality, and with the

obvious values of simplicity. Wilderness teaches a person what one really is, and not

what one thinks one is. I think every wilderness experience could bring about a change in

mindset, and always for the better. If you’ve never had an experience with the wilderness

before, and go into it for the first time, one’s mind or one’s attitude is bound to evolve I

think, for the better. That’s about all I can say on that.

MR. KAYE: I wanted to talk about recreation for a minute. Olaus described recreation in

this area as having a great potential for what he called, or described as, “satisfying an

important human urge”. He said it was the use of “wilderness as wilderness and not as

make believe”. What do you think he meant by this? Did you guys talk about recreation,

or the recreational potential, or what about recreation would be special or unique in this

place?

DR. KREAR: Yes, we certainly did. He thought that, it almost goes without saying that

there are numerous recreational values associated with Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. It

depends on the type of wilderness experience. At Anwar, these would include rafting,

fishing, canoeing, camping, observing and photographing wildlife and flowers, hiking and

climbing, ecological research, experiencing twenty-four hours of daylight in the summer,

and the Aurora Borealis in winter. He just thought that all of these recreational delights

were limitless, and that’s just some of them.

MR. KAYE: You mentioned scientific values; do you have a sense of what he thought

the scientific value of this place would be in the future?

DR. KREAR: While we were there, I helped Ronnie Castle set up some permanent plots

for John Buckley at the University. Some ecological research would be occurring

indefinitely. It was just describing the changes that would occur in those plots over a long

period of time. Where we were, it seemed pretty obvious; the northern limit of course

was extending itself northward, that is just one of the things that he was going to be

describing. I assume those plots are still up there in the northern Sheenjeck Valley.

George Strouder and I helped him set them up. I think the Indians from Arctic Village

would come over there to hunt Wolves, there was a bounty on them at the time; I don’t

know of there still is, or not.

MR. KAYE: No.

DR. KREAR: There would be continuous, or long-term, and those sorts of studies; what

was happening to the wildlife over a long period of time.

MR. KAYE: Did Olaus talk about the bounty that was on Wolves at the time?

DR. KREAR: Yes. He didn’t particularly like it, but he understood why it was

necessary for the Indians. They didn’t take too many Wolves. That was a topic of

conversation. The Atabaskan Indians were pretty much dependent on the $50.00 they

got for a Wolf at that time. I think I shot a couple while we were there.

MR. KAYE: Did Olaus have empathy, that you saw, for native peoples and their use of

this area?

DR. KREAR: Oh, very much, yeah. And the Indians knew it. Every time our bush pilot

visited us; he’d go to Arctic Village first and he’d bring some Indians over to our camp.

We got to know them pretty well, and they got to like us. They commented that we were

quite different from most white people in Alaska. They didn’t like the discrimination

that was directed at them. We got to know them well, and we liked them very much.

MR. KAYE: Interesting. I wonder if they understood what you people were up there

for; in terms of getting information that would be used to protect this area?

DR. KREAR: I think Olaus explained that. He was collecting small mammals and

mounting them and that sort of thing. That really enthralled them to watch him do that.

He pretty much explained why we were there, and what we intended to do with the area.

He explained to them that they would still be permitted to hunt the area after it had been

established as an Arctic National Wildlife Refuge; that it wouldn’t in any sense be a threat

to their lifestyle. They liked that.

MR. KAYE: You mentioned humility once, and the notions of humility and restraint

again, kind of reoccur through the writings of Olaus and Mardie. Why were these

concepts important to them?

DR. KREAR: Mainly for the long-term protection of wilderness, I think. On the

Sheenjeck, we were camped near the northern-most limit of timber. There is no timber on

the mountain slopes. In the valley there was white spruce. Olaus suggested that we look

for and utilize only the dead timber for tents poles, etc. We all felt the terrain was

somewhat fragile, and did our best to make certain that when we left the valley we left no

evidence that we had been there. As far as humility is concerned, I think a wilderness

experience creates a feeling of humility, as well as a feeling of profound gratitude for the

presence of the surrounding natural beauty. It stimulates these feelings, and the pleasure

and joy and realization of how humble we should be in the presence of pristine natural

beauty, it can never be improved upon by man. We made sure while we were there that

we didn’t harm anything. We looked for access someplace of course. When we were

done with our tent poles we stacked them for the next people who would come in. The

value of restraint and humility in wilderness is to preserve wilderness unchanged,

essentially.

MR. KAYE: Are there any other values that the Muries mentioned, or that you feel

might be important to them in terms of the purpose of this place?

DR. KREAR: Well, I think I have mentioned most of them. They were particularly

interested in the Caribou herd. There was a very large Caribou herd that came through the

valley a couple of times. They knew that value of that for the Attabasken [?] Indians,

and those at Arctic Village and those down on the Crow River. They wanted to make

sure that this continued for them, that their lifestyle would never change. They very

much worried that oil drilling at Anwar might represent a very serious change for the

native peoples in the area. I don’t how else to comment on this.

MR. KAYE: How about any sense of value to other peoples who will never go there, but

maybe might enjoy knowing that it’s there?

DR. KREAR: Just knowing it’s there [is important]. Several people have commented

that to me. It takes a pretty noble person to offer that concept, I think. I think I can

understand that. There are many places in the world that I can’t go, but I am very glad

that they are always going to be there.

MR. KAYE: Do you think that was part of the Murie’s thinking then?

DR. KREAR: It would have been, yes. That was a central part of his thinking. It was

mainly just to preserve the wildlife, and the Arctic vegetation.

MR. KAYE: Are there any other things you’d like to add Bob, about either the Muries,

or the effort, or the Arctic Refuge in general?

DR. KREAR: No, not that I can think of. Some friends of mine have done some rafting

up there on the river. That’s become an important thing there, from the south side of the

Brooks Range, and the north side. They said that sometimes when they were up there on

the Arctic slopes, there was some seismic exploration going on. I guess that would be

illegal, but nevertheless, it was going on. Long term scientific research that doesn’t

disturb anything…our most important value is the land. This getting away from the

cities, and getting to have an experience that would probably be one of the most

wonderful experiences in their life. Wilderness changes a person. The change is usually

for the good. And I think… I wish I could speak more eloquently on all of this for you,

but it’s just that it’s been a long time. Now our National Forests are very much at stake.

It seems to be that the present administration is trying to open them up to unlimited

logging. We’ve had too much of that down here in the lower forty-eight as it is. It’s

interesting to know why people are becoming so concerned because there are those that

don’t get out into these places. I am glad to see it’s happening. We’ve got many

conservation organizations now that we never had before and they are doing an awful lot

of good.

MR. KAYE: Well Bob, I want to thank you for this interview, and your time, and your

contribution to the history of this place.

DR. KREAR: You are surely welcome.

MR. KAYE: And one final thing, Bob. Do you feel that your time with the Muries and

especially at Lash Lake in the Arctic Refuge influenced the direction of your career?

DR. KREAR: Yes. I was always impressed with Olaus, even before that. But when I

saw the way he operated, and what his attitudes were towards wilderness and wildlife, it

definitely did. Since then I went into Animal Behavior, and Animal Ecology with a

specialty in the Arctic and Alpine. Olaus did an awful lot for me. When I applied for the

job in the Purpolop[?] Islands, why, I didn’t realize it but he wrote to Victor Sheppard

who was in charge of the research up there. He wrote a letter on my behalf. When I went

out to the Aleutian Islands, he did the same thing. He was instrumental in my getting

both of those jobs. I really appreciated that. And he didn’t even tell me about it! I just

liked, I liked that fact that Olaus was such a humble person. He was totally at ease with

everyone. He was never pretentious. Almost all of the biologists I knew or had heard of,

had a great respect for Olaus Murie because of his simplicity, his very eloquent

statements, and what he believed in. He was an inspiration to almost everyone. I spent a

lot of time at that ranch in Jackson Hole and many, many students came there. It was

obvious that he was the inspiration for their going to work in wildlife conservation.

MR. KAYE: Well again, thank you.