Bill and Jean Thomas oral history transcript

              INTERVIEW WITH BILL AND JEAN THOMAS

BY ROGER KAYE NOVEMBER 12, 2002

MR. KAYE: This is an Oral History interview with Bill and Jean Thomas, conducted in

Wasilla, Alaska on November 12, 2002. The subject is their life on the upper Porcupine

and upper Black Rivers. Roger Kaye is conducted the interview. Jean and Bill, thank

you for participating in this. I’ll begin with you first, Jean. What years did you live on

the Porcupine River? I believe it was at the Salmon, Trout and Porcupine River areas.

MRS. THOMAS: I don’t remember years, we were pretty young anyway. Bobbie was

about seven or eight years old when we left Old Rampart to go to Burnt Paw because of

my dad’s health. My brother was born there, and that was in 1961 I guess. So that was

quiet a number of years ago I guess.

MR. KAYE: So you lived there, and your father had a trading post. There was your

mother, and your sisters; Bella, Doris, Barbara and Bessie.

MRS. THOMAS: Bessie’s real name is Blanche, Blanche Williams now. My dad had a

trading post and he was also a trapper.

MR. KAYE: Your father was Charlie Strong, is that right?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes.

MR. KAYE: Tell me about him.

MRS. THOMAS: I was just a little kid when we were up there. One of the highlights I

always remember when my dad came home from the trap line was us kids looking

forward to taking his boots off, and putting his slippers on for him. That was such a joy

to do that.

MR. KAYE: You were about 170 miles up the Porcupine from Fort Yukon. Was there a

sense of isolation, or being far away from everybody else?

MRS. THOMAS: I can remember times when it seems that way, but there was our

family and there was another family across the river. There were at least two or three

other families. In the wintertime we could go across the ice and visit back and forth. Of

course, my Grandmother lived near us there too.

MR. KAYE: What was her name?

MRS. THOMAS: May, May Martin.

MR. KAYE: Was she married to John Herbert then?

MRS. THOMAS: I guess she was married to him, but I don’t remember him at all. So he

must have died before I could remember.

MR. KAYE: What is most memorable about childhood way up the river there?

MRS. THOMAS: I guess we always thinking of the fun things. We don’t think of all of

the hard work! Of course, I was so young, that in the summer time and in fall, or about

August I guess, when the Salmon start coming in. My dad had a what we called a [sounds

like] petta bar. He would go out and check the nets and the petta bar would be half full

three times a day. Mom and the older kids had a lot of fish to cut. We’d cut it and dry it

and bale it and smoke it and just every way we could fix it. That is one of the things I

remember. It was always a lot of hard work. They worked hard, but I was too young to

cut fish. I helped carry it up the bank. We’d put it in a burlap bag and put it over our

shoulder, with all of this stuff running down our backs. I helped that way but I wasn’t

allowed to cut the fish because mom thought that I’d cut myself.

MR. KAYE: So, when you were seven or eight you went to Burnt Paw, just down the

river. Then you moved to Fort Yukon, is that right?

MRS. THOMAS: Yeah, my dad’s health was not very good, so we had to move.

MR. KAYE: Was that in the late 1940’s?

MRS. THOMAS: It was later than that, but I don’t remember the years.

MR. KAYE: Did you meet Bill here, in Fort Yukon?

MRS. THOMAS: I have known his family for years. I guess all my life I have known

his family.

MR. KAYE: Well Bill, let me ask you a couple of questions now. You grew up in a

trapping camp on the Black River, is that right? Just south of where Jean grew up?

MR. THOMAS: I am not sure about the distances, but it is approximately 300 miles

from Fort Yukon up the river. It used to take us seven days traveling, long days on the

boat, to get there.

MR. KAYE: Who were your parents?

MR. THOMAS: Jacob Thomas. “Tommy the Mate”, they called him. He was a Mate

on a steamer there for many years. My mother was Margaret. I think my dad came to

Alaska in 1905 or 1906. He was working on the river boats as First Mate and from there

he took on the trapping.

MR. KAYE: When did your father move up to the upper Black River?

MR. THOMAS: It was a long time ago. Let’s see, it was probably in the early 1930’s.

MR. KAYE: So, you really grew up there?

MR. THOMAS: Yes.

MR. KAYE: And how old were you when you left that area?

MR. THOMAS: I left in 1942.

MR. KAYE: So you left during the War?

MR. THOMAS: Yes.

MR. KAYE: What was childhood like up there?

MR. THOMAS: It was beautiful. There was a nice, clean environment. You don’t catch

no “bugs” because there was no people! We’d be there approximately nine months out of

the year. Then it got to be just our family. Our nearest neighbor up river was about

twenty-five miles. And the nearest one down river was about forty miles.

MR. KAYE: Was there a sense of isolation, being away from everybody?

MR. THOMAS: Yes, but you get used to it. We actually enjoy it. But it does get kind

of lonesome once in a while. You think about what all the other young people are doing,

you know, but other than that we enjoyed it. It was a good, clean life.

MR. KAYE: Was that lifestyle then, based on trapping? Was that the main thing?

MR. THOMAS: Yeah, trapping.

MR. KAYE: When you were young, what was an average day like for you?

MR. THOMAS: Well, let’s see, it depends on what time of the year it is.

MR. KAYE: Say, trapping season?

MR. THOMAS: We’d have lines going out to different areas. Then we’d have either a

small trapping cabin or in some cases we used a 7’ x 7’ wall tent if there was no timber in

the area to build with. You’d go out for three or four days at a time and come back. Then

you’d go out in another direction for a few more days and come back. You could cover a

lot of area that way. It was interesting. It was a good life, but it’s gone now.

MR. KAYE: It’s gone now! So you left during World War II. Did you serve in the War?

MR. THOMAS: Yeah.

MR. KAYE: Where at?

MR. THOMAS: I was in the Coast Guard. I shipped out to Ketchikan, to the base there

for a while. Then I was on a patrol boat up west of there in the [unintelligible] Straits

area for three or four months. I came back and joined the parachute rescue squad. I didn’t

jump, but the crew, the jumpers that had gone off for training and another fellow and I

joined afterwards. They picked us because we were equipped, you know, used to it, in

case they had to hall somebody out of the bush or someplace. They did that with a

helicopter.

MR. KAYE: Wow! So after the War then, did you ever go back to Black River to trap?

MR. THOMAS: No. When I got out of the service a took a years training at [sounds

like] Care River Technical Institute to be a mechanic. There was really nothing left to go

back to.

MR. KAYE: So you had had enough of that lifestyle, and wanted to…?

MR. THOMAS: Oh, no! Not us. It’s just that things had changed. The prices of fur

and the costs. You had to have a steady job in order to go out and trap!

MR. KAYE: I see.

MR. THOMAS: It’s a good life. I enjoy getting out, and staying there.

MR. KAYE: So, your seasonal cycle during the year then was you trapped the main fur

animals, and then in the spring would you trap beaver and rats?

MR. THOMAS: Yes and in the early days you were allowed to shoot beaver too. But

later on it was trapping only, mostly muskrat and beavers.

MR. KAYE: Then what would you do after the muskrat and beaver season?

MR. THOMAS: Then we’d head for town and celebrate! A little recreation!

MR. KAYE: Tell me about the trip from upper Black River to Fort Yukon. You had

homemade boats?

MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah. We had a large river boat and a smaller poling boat that we

towed. It’s takes about two days to get there going down river.

MR. KAYE: So who all would be in the boat? Would it be pretty crowded?

MR. THOMAS: No, just my family, my mother and dad and all my brothers.

MR. KAYE: Did you have dog teams too that went?

MR. THOMAS: The dog team went in the poling boat.

MR. KAYE: So you’d float down to Fort Yukon, and that was the first time you’d seen

other people for quite a while?

MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah. Like I say, we had a few neighbors up river, but they just

passed going one way or the other.

MR. KAYE: So what’s it like for a young boy to be entering Fort Yukon after being out

in the woods for nine months?

MR. THOMAS: Well, you enjoyed it. You notice I’m not much of a talker. You stay

out in the woods for nine months and you get used to not talking very much. Of course,

you’d talk to your family, but when you’re out by yourself for a week at a time, you’re

not used to talking.

MR. KAYE: Did you have your own dog team as a boy?

MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah. I used dog teams all of the time. It was the only way to get

around in the wintertime, unless you wanted to use snowshoes.

MR. KAYE: As a boy or young man would you go out by yourself?

MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah.

MR. KAYE: How long would you be out by yourself?

MR. THOMAS: Well, mostly ten days or so when you were out building a cabin or

something like that. But normally, if you were just trapping, five days was about the

most you were out there. Out there it would get down to sixty-five below, you’ve got to

keep going because you’ve got only so much food and fuel. It was interesting in a way.

MR. KAYE: Were you ever scared, going out that far, alone?

MR. THOMAS: No. Didn’t even think about it. You get past that after a while.

MR. KAYE: Jean, did you make the same trips from the Porcupine down to Fort Yukon

in a plank boat?

MRS. THOMAS: My dad had a big barge made out of wood. And he had a big inboard

motor that had the power. That’s what we used to go down the river with in the

springtime and coming back in the fall. They put a tent over the big barge and that kept

the wind and rain out. That’s the kind of boat we had for going back and forth.

MR. KAYE: Jean, tell me what it was like; the trip from Salmon Trout, or Old Rampart

house, it was called, down to Fort Yukon.

MRS. THOMAS: In the springtime, sometime in May, or when the ice goes, that’s

when we headed down. Of course there was high water from bank to bank and it was

very swift. I believe we had our dogs on the raft next to our boat. We had to watch them

as we were going down river. I remember that was kind of scary because the water was

so high bank to bank, and so swift. Our dogs were on the raft next to our boat.

MR. KAYE: Before you got to Fort Yukon, did you stop and dress up, or get ready?

MRS. THOMAS: We probably did. I don’t remember exactly. Of course, we were very

anxious to see our relatives that were there, our Aunt especially. Aunt Fanny and Jimmy

Carroll had a general store. Our Aunt always had us up for lunch. I remember after being

up home all winter long, you run out of different things. My dad always bought things

by case lot, but towards spring you’d begin to run out of various foods and things. She

used to open up a can of peaches and we thought that was just the most delicious thing!

We used to look forward to that so much!

MR. KAYE: I’ve got a picture that I took of the place years ago. That’s your father’s

place right, the house that you grew up in?

MRS. THOMAS: Probably, I don’t remember that far back. But that might be.

MR. KAYE: If that old building could talk, what do you think it would tell for stories?

MRS. THOMAS: “I miss you all!” I remember that it was a very nice place. We had a

kitchen. And my mom had everything so nice and clean. We had a wooden floor that was

white. It wasn’t painted or anything. Mom kept it so clean. We just utilized whatever

was available. We didn’t have a store to go to buy Comet or anything, so what my mom

used on the floor was wood ash. She scrubbed the floor with that and it made it nice and

white, just like Comet would do. That’s one of the things I remember. Of course, the

back rooms were hard wood floors. I remember that my mom baked all of the bread and

rolls and cinnamon rolls and things like that. She always had a big bowl of rolls on the

table. Even when we were outdoors playing and we came in, we would never just go to

the table and help ourselves. We had to ask, I remember. It was always nice to have that

on the table. There were always cinnamon rolls, of fresh rolls, or fried bread. She would

take part of the dough and fry it in Crisco. That’s what they used all of the time. It was

so delicious. I still like homemade bread today. My mom would bake as much as

fourteen or fifteen loaves at a time because there was no place to go to buy anything like

that.

MR. KAYE: So, your father was a trader. And he had a trading post there. Who came

to buy goods from your father?

MRS. THOMAS: People came from across the river, like I said. And the native people

that trapped, they came bought their supplies from Dad.

MR. KAYE: Did people come from Old Crow and from up on the coast?

MRS. THOMAS: I don’t remember from how far they would come up. But I know

there were quite a number of people. I just don’t know where they all came from.

MR. KAYE: What were your happiest times there as a child? What are the most

memorable things that you did?

MRS. THOMAS: I think the most fun thing we did was sledding. My dad made a

toboggan for us and we would slide down the bank and out on to the river. It was all

frozen and packed with snow from the wind that blows so much there. My dad would

help us pull it back up and we’d do it again. Then, we’d make snow houses too, like the

Eskimos do I guess. Sometimes my mom, and dad would haul the blocks of snow, square

blocks, and she’s make a house for us; just stacking them up. Sometimes we would just

make a pile of snow and make a hole inside. That was our little snow house. My mom

used to make little furniture for me, for inside of the house. There was a stove and a sink

and different pieces of furniture. When the spring came, I wanted to keep my furniture. I

didn’t want it to melt on me. So I would put it behind the house and try and preserve it

as long as I could before it melted on me.

MR. KAYE: What did you do during the summer?

MRS. THOMAS: Well, as soon as the ice was gone we went to Fort Yukon.

MR. KAYE: What did you do there in Fort Yukon?

MRS. THOMAS: We had a lot of friends and relatives that we visited we. And we had a

lot of cousins that we played with. We made little clothes for our dolls, and little fur

coats out of squirrel and rabbit skins. I used to enjoy doing that.

MR. KAYE: Was it hard for you to go back up the Porcupine River in the fall and leave

Fort Yukon?

MRS. THOMAS: No, we enjoyed it. We actually looked forward to going back up

there. It was so much fun. We never got sick when we were up there. It’s just amazing

how none of us ever got hurt or anything as much we did. My older sisters would cut

and chop the wood. That’s just the way of life. Nobody ever got hurt. Nobody ever got

sick until we came to town, and we all would catch a cold. But it was a fun way of life.

We liked it.

MR. KAYE: You mentioned the natives that lived across the river. Your mother was

native, what that right, and your father was a Scotsman?

MRS. THOMAS: A Swede.

MR. KAYE: Ok, what did you consider yourself? Was there a question about your

identity at all?

MRS. THOMAS: The kids used to just make fun of me. I guess I was lighter that they

were. And they told me that my hair was like grass in the fall. I would cry. I would

come in and say that to my mom. I would go back out and say that my hair was that

color because my mom put Mentholatum in my hair! That was kind of hard because the

kids made fun of me. I different that they were I guess.

MR. KAYE: Your father was probably a leader in that area, being a white person and

being educated and having a store. Were you kind of different from other Indian kids

whose families trapped and traveled through the area?

MRS. THOMAS: We didn’t think we were really different. We were all so close there.

I guess the only thing I can remember is that they made fun of the color of my hair and

things like that. But other than that, I think we got along pretty well.

MR. KAYE: Bill, what did you do when you were a very young boy; too young to be

out trapping? What did you do up the Black River as a child?

MR. THOMAS: I can’t remember too much before trapping. We started awful early.

We probably started at about ten years old. Of course we went to school too. Yeah we

started quite early with the trapping. I spent several years at Fort Yukon going to school

when I quite small. When we got older, why, we were part of the team. It would take

everybody to make things go.

MR. KAYE: So when did you quit school?

MR. THOMAS: I don’t remember the date, of course. I was mostly self-taught. I read a

lot so I could pass my GED. We did get too much book learning.

MR. KAYE: You were also part white, and part [sounds like] Cochin. What did you

consider yourself, or did you even think about it?

MR. THOMAS: I didn’t think about. Mother was half, and dad of course was white.

We were three quarters native, but it just never crossed your mind, really. You were just

like anybody else.

MR. KAYE: When you were a kid, living way up the Black River, you must have read

about the lower forty-eight and the outside world. What did you think of that far away

place?

MR. THOMAS: Well, I doubt we gave it much thought. As I remember, we had another

schoolboy from stateside writing back and forth as a pen pal. He mentioned some of the

things, but I don’t think we were really interested. We were more interested in what we

were doing.

MR. KAYE: Jean, when you were a very small girl living up on the Porcupine, you

probably read your father’s magazines about the lower forty-eight. What did you think

about that far away place?

MRS. THOMAS: Well, I guess it was something like a dream I guess. You just never

thought much about it I guess because you just know you’ll never go there. It was just so

impossible. We were way up there. We were so busy when we were up there, making a

living, and with chores and everything we had to do that a person didn’t think too much

about anything else. Just about what you needed to do. You were so exhausted in the

evening you’d just go to sleep. We just really didn’t think too much about it.

MR. KAYE: When you were a young girl, was there any sense of change, or any sense

that old native ways and that traditional lifestyle were disappearing?

MRS. THOMAS: Not that I can remember.

MR. KAYE: Looking back at it today, it’s gone pretty much, as a lifestyle. What do

you think about that? Is it unfortunate? Was anything lost with that change?

MRS. THOMAS: I think so. It’s such a good and peaceful life. It’s a wonderful life.

And it was clean. Instead of what the kids are getting into nowadays, you know, with all

crimes. All of the drinking and drugs and things we were spared. So we never got into

anything like that out there. In a lot of ways the younger people who live around Fort

Yukon may have a better education, but from our standpoint and with the way we were

raised, we just had better morals and things like that. We were sparred from all of that. I

don’t know which one way is the other. I prefer the other way myself, the way I was

raised. I have seen relatives, and other people that I know just going down the tubes the

way they are living nowadays and it’s really a shame. Becoming an alcoholic and using

drugs and things like that that we never even heard of when we were growing up. We

were just away from all of that.

MR. KAYE: So you think you’re a better person for having grown up that way, out

there?

MRS. THOMAS: I think so.

MR. KAYE: How about you Bill? Do you feel that having grown up and worked hard

out there in that kind life was important to the person that you became?

MR. THOMAS: I wouldn’t be important if you could make everything easy. But with

the price of fur down and the cost of everything is up, why, nowadays it would be kind

of hard to make a go of it. We’d have to work all summer in order to be able to trap all

winter. It was a good life. I really enjoyed it. I would have liked to have kept right on

with the way it was. But it’s gone.

MR. KAYE: Looking at the future now: Back when you two were young there was no

sense that the area where you grew up and trapped in would become a National Wildlife

Refuge. In 1980, a law was passed, the Lands Act. Bill your area became the Yukon

Flats Refuge, and Jean, your area became the Arctic Refuge. Do you recalled hearing

about the Alaska lands issue? It was very controversial in Fort Yukon and other places in

the 1970s. The idea of putting your area within a refuge to protect it; what did you think

of that when you heard about that idea?

MRS. THOMAS: I think it’s wonderful to preserve the land that we grew up on there.

With all of the animals, and the Caribou migrating there. They stayed up a hill out behind

our place all winter long. I’d just like to see that continue. It’s such a beautiful place. If I

was thirty years younger, I’d go back there. It’s such a beautiful country, and it’s really

neat.

MR. KAYE: How about you Bill? Do you remember the controversy to protect that

area? What do you think about the idea of being protected as a Wildlife Refuge?

MR. THOMAS: I would like to see it protected. They are all for development and all of

that, but I like the country the way it was. As long as the people are allowed to hunt and

fish and trap, why, it’s wonderful. I’d sure like to see it kept that way.

MR. KAYE: Jean, I’ve got a picture that I found. Actually, your sister Bella gave it to

me. It shows you girls when you were quite young in what looks like homemade parkas

standing in front of Old Rampart on the river. Tell me about that picture, and what you

see there.

MRS. THOMAS: Do you want me to describe the parkas and how they were made?

MR. KAYE: Yes!

MRS. THOMAS: I’ll describe Bella’s parka. The parka is made from Caribou hide. My

mom tans it. This is the fur side out. She tans on the inside. I think it was white fox.

There is fancy trim and Wolverine trim on the bottom. That’s how she made all of our

parkas. When we were younger, about seven, eight or ten years old, she made what looks

like bib overalls with feet attached, and the fur is on the inside. That’s how our clothing

was when we were outdoors playing all day. We never got cold because the Caribou hide

is so warm. In this picture the next one is my other sister Barb, I believe, then me and my

other sister Doris. She isn’t living any more, but there were four of us there.

MR. KAYE: Do you remember going up on the rock that’s behind Old Rampart?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes we did. In fact, just right up in here, is where we used to go up.

[showing on photograph] We went up on the edge and looked up and down the river at

the boats coming in. Sometimes there would just be a big barge hauling freight back and

forth to Old Crow. We used to look forward to seeing that.

MR. KAYE: Would people stop by your place to visit, who were going to Old Crow or

beyond?

MRS. THOMAS: Sometimes they did. But a lot of times they just went on. It often

depended on the weather and the water level. Sometimes the water would get low and

they have to go when it’s just right. They would just keep going because it’s quite a long

ways.

MR. KAYE: Did any of the Ministers stop by? The Episcopal Priests, or Anglican?

MRS. THOMAS: Not that I can remember, not way up there.

MR. KAYE: And how did you get your mail?

MRS. THOMAS: I remember Sam White used to bring it up in the wintertime.

MR. KAYE: The Game Warden?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes.

MR. KAYE: Do you remember Sam White, the Game Warden?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes, he used to land right in front of our place. He had a big gravel bar

there to land on.

MR. KAYE: Oh he did!? What did people think about a Game Warden at that time?

MRS. THOMAS: I don’t know. He was a nice guy and very friendly. It was nice to see

him when he brought up our mail.

MR. KAYE: He didn’t give local people trouble about breaking the law?

MRS. THOMAS: It was a way of life. I think he just sort of accepted it, you know.

We’d just get the Caribou when we needed it, and so forth in the wintertime.

MR. KAYE: And he overlooked that?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes. That was just a way of life for us. There was no other way to

get meat. That’s what we did. The Caribou were just right up the hill so whenever we

needed meat, we’d just go up and get a Caribou.

MR. KAYE: Would Sam stay overnight at your place, or would he just stop by?

MRS. THOMAS: I think he just stopped by.

MR. KAYE: Did he have his old airplane, the biplane?

MRS. THOMAS: Yeah, he had a little airplane. I don’t know what kind it was. He

would just come in and land on the big gravel bar right in front of our place.

MR. KAYE: I see. Did you come in the winter or summer?

MRS. THOMAS: It was in the wintertime. I remember the snow.

MR. KAYE: He landed with skis?

MRS. THOMAS: Right.

MR. KAYE: Did he talk to you kids?

MRS. THOMAS: I suppose he did. I don’t really remember. Of course, we were all so

shy. Whenever somebody comes we were so shy we didn’t talk very much like people

do nowadays.

MR. KAYE: Bill, let me ask you, do you remember Sam White?

MR. THOMAS: Yeah.

MR. KAYE: Did he stop by your camp?

MR. THOMAS: Yes, there was one time that he stopped there that I can remember. I

remember him bringing oranges and candy for the kids. That was quite a treat during the

wintertime. What he did was to stop by and check the furs to make sure you didn’t have

any illegal furs. At that time you were allowed ten [unintelligible] per person. So you

don’t over do it. But he didn’t give anybody a bad time as I recall. As far as he was

concerned if you didn’t waste it, even feeding it to the dogs, it was ok.

MR. KAYE: In those days, he was concerned about people using strychnine. I know

that some people in Fort Yukon did. What that an issue that you remember hearing

about?

MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I heard about. I figured any way to get rid of those cotton

picking [sounds like] wolves. They can be quite bad. When the snow and weather

conditions are just right they can really murder those moose.

MR. KAYE: So did you try strychnine?

MR. THOMAS: No. He was down in the Hughes area there, when I was working for

Wings. I was a bush pilot for Wings. He said that the moose were up to their bellies in

the snow and wolves could just walk on the crust. They could wipe the moose

population out. They were just helpless.

MR. KAYE: Do you remember Evelyn Shore, when she lived up the Black River?

She was one of the women who lived up there on the Black River. She wrote the book

Born on Snow Shoes.

MR. THOMAS: Was that the [sounds like] Bergams you mean?

MR. KAYE: Yes, that’s right.

MR. THOMAS: They were up on the Salmon River fork. The Salmon River goes to the

right, and the Black River goes to the left. They were up there somewhere. I’m not sure

where, but there were three sisters there.

MR. KAYE: They were pretty tough trappers?

MR. THOMAS: I understand they were! [Mrs. Thomas laughs]

MR. KAYE: Tell me about them.

MR. THOMAS: Well, I don’t know that much about them! They had two brothers who

drowned in a boat accident down at Fort Yukon. There were just the three girls that I

remember, besides their mother. Later on there was this old guy named John who was

helping them out too. But I don’t that much about them.

MR. KAYE: Jean, do you remember the Bergam sisters?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes, I do.

MR. KAYE: Tell me about them.

MRS. THOMAS: Well, they were pretty rough. Their mother was a real lady. She had

bakeshop where she would bake all kinds of breads, and she’d sell it. I remember she

would crochet beautiful tablecloths and bedspreads and things like that. She was a

beautiful lady, and very nice. The girls were very rough and rugged, just like men you

know. I guess they did everything men could do as far as hunting and trapping. They

talked a lot. They really like to talk with ladies. There were, I believe there were, three

sisters. I believe they were all married and had children. I used to iron for Evelyn, I think

that was her name. She would put clothes in a big washtub and fill it up. She and her

husband didn’t like to do the ironing. I would iron for hours for her!

MR. KAYE: Did you ever hear stories of the ‘bush man’ when you were a girl growing

up there?

MRS. THOMAS: Yeah, I’ve heard of stories about that, but I don’t remember much.

They used to talk about it. It was kind of scary, you know, wondering if you might run

into one of them or something when you were way out. But other than that, I don’t

remember too much about it.

MR. KAYE: Your mother, and your grandmother May Martin, did they tell stories

about what it was like before the white man came, before there was a white presence?

MRS. THOMAS: I know my sister Bella talks about that. But I don’t remember my

grandmother much at all. I was very young when she died. I remember very little about

her. I think it was grandfather Roderick, we used to be kind of afraid of him because they

called him a medicine man. They’d say that he could just hang on a nail in the wall and

call the rabbits. He’d take a willow and make a snare and call rabbits in. He could call

rabbits that way. I remember us kids used to be kind of afraid of him. But that’s about

all I remember about him.

MR. KAYE: How about you Bill, did you hear stories about the ‘bush man’ at all?

MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah.

MR. KAYE: What were they?

MR. THOMAS: I believe what they actually were, were people used to have these

warring parties. The stories that I heard at the Naval base was that the Eskimos and the

Indians had a lot of warfare between them. Sometimes some of the people would get

pretty well wiped out. There were just a few of them left and they lived all by

themselves. That is one way they said that the ‘bush man’ could have evolved. Then,

people would be afraid of them. They lived by themselves. But this is just hearsay.

MR. KAYE: You never met one?

MR. THOMAS: No!

MR. KAYE: Did you hear about Veit Quatro, a bushman that lived in that area?

THE THOMASES: No, we haven’t.

MR. KAYE: Bill did you hear stories about the first white people that came into the

country, or hear stories from relatives about before they came?

MR. THOMAS: I heard an old fellow tell about how this was passed down. There was

this old guy and the first time he say these Russian traders, and they showed him guns

and matches and things like that. At that time, all they had for making fires was flint.

They’d make a powder out of these growths on Birch trees. Then they’d strike the flint

and get a spark going over this powdered material. They’d get it started that way.

Anyway, supposedly these three Russians, they caught him and he was afraid. The

story that he was telling people was that he afraid. They showed him how to shoot a

gun, and they gave him a gun. They told him to go get some fur. They gave him matches

of course. They took his flint outfit and flung it out in the bushes and he was so

unhappy about that! He took this back to his camp and told the other natives about it.

Apparently, that how they got started to interacting with the Russian fur traders. They

wanted, they gave the natives equipment so that they could get some furs. Other than

that, it was just a passed down story. I don’t really know nothing much about it.

MR. KAYE: What year were you born Bill?

MR. THOMAS: December, 1920.

MR. KAYE: So you probably wouldn’t have known Hudson Stuck then?

MR. THOMAS: No, but I heard a lot about him.

MR. KAYE: What did you hear about Hudson Stuck?

MR. THOMAS: Well, not too much really. I heard my dad talk about him. I understand

that he was one of the first to climb Mount McKinley, although he had a lot of help. I

understand that they helped him up to the top there. His native helpers helped him get

up to the top there. He traveled around a lot, I understand, from village to village, by dog

team. It was before my time. I remember seeing a great big concrete cross where his grave

is there at Fort Yukon.

MR. KAYE: Did you hear stories about Hudson Stuck, Jean?

MRS. THOMAS: I remember the name, but I don’t remember any stories. That was

before my time. I don’t know much about it.

MR. KAYE: Jean, this is a picture of Old Rampart, taken from that rock that we looked

at earlier. This is a little cove there, tell me about that.

MRS. THOMAS: That’s what we called a Salmon [trap?]…you mean up this river here?

MR. KAYE: Yes.

MRS. THOMAS: That’s where the Salmon, they spawn up this way. They go up this,

it’s a good sized river there.

MR. KAYE: Did you net them there?

MRS. THOMAS: Yeah, right it there, [pointing to photo] there was an eddy that my

dad used to go out with the [sounds like] peterbar and get it half full three times a day in

the fall.

MR. KAYE: Really? So quite a few salmon go up there?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes. Oh, there were these big schools. You could see them. The

water was clear, just like rainwater so you could see them real well. I remember my dad

used to get all of that salmon in and my mom and my older sister would cut fish until late

in the evening by lantern.

MR. KAYE: And that was to feed the dog team?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes.

MR. KAYE: How many dogs did you folks have?

MRS. THOMAS: I think my dad must have had about fifteen or sixteen dogs.

MR. KAYE: Oh really, a couple of teams then?

MRS. THOMAS: Um, hum. That was a lot of dogs. Of course we had to have a lot of

dogs for hauling the wood as well as my dad traveling.

MR. KAYE: Did you fish for Grayling in the creek there?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes, we fished for Grayling there. I remember further up this little

creek there was a big flat rock, just like somebody had sliced the top of it off. You could

go out on it and fish. The water was real deep but you could see the Grayling just coming

around. I remember I was fishing there one time and like I said, you could see the fish real

clear, and I could see one coming for my bait and my heart would just be pounding. I just

knew that big Grayling was going to get in the net.

MR. KAYE: Do you remember when the first airplane came to Old Rampart?

MRS. THOMAS: Well, Sam White, I think, is the first one that I remember coming with

an airplane up there. That was in the wintertime. I don’t remember ever having any boat

coming, unless he landed on a little lake. There was a little lake on that gravel bar I was

telling you about earlier, too. He may have landed there with a float plane too, but I don’t

remember.

MR. KAYE: How about you Bill? What’s the first airplane you remember seeing?

MR. THOMAS: We had a person up above our place named Kennedy that was sick, he

was brought down by our neighbor there. He was all swollen up. I don’t know what it

was. But anyway, he was sick and they decided to try to run to town by dog team and

send an airplane up for him. It takes five days by dog team to get to Fort Yukon if the

trail is good. This fellow went down and brought back an airplane. They couldn’t land

on the river so they landed on this large lake on the back. We hauled him out. My dad

hauled him out by dog team to the airplane and they flew him out. I think that was the

first one. About that same time they started hauling freight by airplane up in to our

country up there. Jim Dodson was the first one that stopped by at our place. He flew

by and dropped a note saying that he’d like to stop by. He wanted us to make a twenty

foot circle on the ice there if was no over flow. If there was overflow, we were to make a

square. My dad was downriver. My mom was there. And I had already been out all

day. I hitched up the team and when down to get him. I know that he wanted to go to

town by the aircraft. That’s probably the first or second time. It was probably 1937, or

1938.

MR. KAYE: When you were young and trapping there what kind of catches did you

make? How many martin or lynx did you catch? Do you remember in a year?

MR. THOMAS: We didn’t get too many lynx when I was [trapping]. Earlier there was

more. We’d get four or five mink a winter, and probably thirty or forty martin. Primarily

we got a lot of beaver and muskrat. I have some pictures that you have probably seen,

that show how we’d get probably fifty or so beaver in the springtime, and a few hundred

muskrats.

MR. KAYE: When did the rest of your family leave the Black River for Fort Yukon?

MR. THOMAS: The ice was usually out by the 10th of June, and we’d head on down.

MR. KAYE: When did your family quit living out there year round, or for all but the

summer.

MR. THOMAS: They were still living there when I left in 1942. They were there for

some time after that.

MR. KAYE: Did you ever go back?

MR. THOMAS: I’ve been back a few times. I’ve gone out hunting with my brother

John up there for moose. It’s nice. I like to get out and see the old country.

MR. KAYE: Your brother John describes himself as a “gentleman trapper”. He says

that he like to go out, but he doesn’t want to work hard like in those days.

MR. THOMAS: We went trapping there. We don’t travel together. We’d do in

different directions. We all traveled by ourselves when we trapped. It was a good life.

I enjoyed it.

MR. KAYE: That’s all the questions that I had. Do you have anything that you want to

add?

MRS. THOMAS: I’ve got a bear story that I wanted to tell about my dad and I.

MR. KAYE: Please do.

MRS. THOMAS: This was in Burnt Paw. I was a bit older then, so I could go out and

trap with my dad.

MR. KAYE: Burnt Paw is down river about thirty or forty miles or so?

MRS. THOMAS: Yes, from Old Rampart. It was in the fall, and my dad…

MR. KAYE: What year would this have been?

MRS. THOMAS: I don’t remember. I was helping my dad break a new trail over the

mountain, and down. We had to cut all of the brush out of the way to make the new trail.

We would set up a tent. We had two tents and went home and got another tent so we

would camp in the next one, and so forth. We would be setting traps as we were going

along. We’d check them on the way back. I guess we’d go back and check our traps

about once a week because sometimes it would snow so much you couldn’t let them go

for too long. We were back checking our trap line, my dad and I, and when we came to

the second tent we noticed that a bear had been there. It was a Grizzly bear. You could

put your feet inside of their footprint. My dad only had a thirty aught six [30.06 cal.]

Everything was strewn around. The tent was ripped down. The big pot that we used to

heat snow for water was just like somebody had put a bullet in it. We had powdered

eggs, and powdered milk and things like that, and Frisky for the dogs. All of that was just

torn up and strewn everywheres. I remember that was so scared. We had to pitch a tent.

We had a new tent with us, and we had to stay there that night! Of all things! The dogs

were all scared. You can tell. We didn’t see the bear, but we could tell. There was tracks

all over. The food was just strung everywhere and the tent was torn down. It was just a

mess. Luckily we had our tent and the stove was ok. I remember that I didn’t get much

sleep that night. As a matter of fact, I don’t think I got any sleep at all. I was so scared!

My dad had the 30.06. He didn’t have a bigger gun than that with him. And you know it

was a big grizzly bear.

MR. THOMAS: They [bears] are extremely dangerous when they’re out in the

wintertime like that.

MR. KAYE: The winter bears?

MR. THOMAS: Anything that moves is food.

MR. KAYE: Did you have trouble with winter bears at all? [to Mr. Thomas]

MR. THOMAS: No. I can remember I was setting out my line at the top of the

mountain in early November. I saw a track there across the road. Have you seen these

bear claw snowshoes? That’s about what it looked like. Fortunately I didn’t have a trail

in there yet. Otherwise, if I had had a trail, he’d probably follow it to camp. They are

hungry when they’re out like that, and they’ll eat anything.

MR. KAYE: Anything else either of you would like to add about the old days up at

camp?

MRS. THOMAS: At Burnt Paw, when were living there my dad had been quite ill then;

he had a trap line out but he wasn’t able to go out and check it. My sister Barbara was

only seven or eight years old at that time. They chose me to go out and check the traps

which I did. Mom wanted my sister to come along. I don’t know what kind of help she

would have been. It was just for company I guess. She rode the sled the whole way. I

remember putting my snowshoes on real early in the morning, as soon as day break and

starting to break the trail; following the trap line that my dad had. We camped out twice

with a tent in each place. When you get in to camp it would start getting dark and you

have to feed the dogs and fix your own food and all of that. I often wondered why they

let my sister go because she was so young. I guess mom thought that she’d be good

company for me. I was scared a little bit at night because it was just my sister and I way

out in the woods.

MR. THOMAS: I heard a story when they were out, about bears.

MR. KAYE: This was the Bergam girls?

MR. THOMAS: Yes. This bear was following their trail to a cabin. The trapping cabin

was usually small so it would be easy to heat. The bear trail went into the cabin and

didn’t come back out. The three girls had these old [sounds like] Grey Jorgenson rifles.

They were 30.40’s. I understand that they started shooting into that cabin and they

killed the bear without even seeing him. They must have riddled up that cabin pretty

well.

MR. KAYE: Did you know Pete Nelson? He was down river from your camp.

MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah, we used to stop at his place all of the time.

MR. KAYE: What other old-timers were in that area where you trapped?

MR. THOMAS: There was old Gabriel. I don’t know his last name. Gabriel is what

they called him. We have different places there, different camps. Gabriel’s was one

place. Then there was John Stevens’ place on the way towards [sounds like] Tealgeetzik.

I just remembered the names of people that had a camp, they wintered there and trapped

out of there. In the summer time you went back downtown. Fort Yukon was the main

hub. Everybody from that whole area there migrate to Fort Yukon.

MR. KAYE: And you call that “downtown”?

THE THOMASES: Oh yeah.

MR. THOMAS: That the big city!

MR. KAYE: It was a big city to you. Bill, when was the first time you saw a real city

like Fairbanks?

MR. THOMAS: In 1942.

MR. KAYE: Oh, not until you left for the war?

MR. THOMAS: Yep, it had a population of three thousand, five hundred.

MR. KAYE: What did it seem like to you back then?

MR. THOMAS: Of course, it’s grown a little bit.

MR. KAYE: And Jean, when is the first time you saw a big city like Fairbanks? Do you

remember your first impression?

MRS. THOMAS: I remember seeing the cows along the road. I had never seen a cow

before.

MR. KAYE: How old were you when you first saw Fairbanks?

MRS. THOMAS: I was probably about sixteen or seventeen. I remember seeing them

along the road. I was with Phillips Baker and his family. Evelyn Melville, I used to work

for her in Fort Yukon.

MR. KAYE: Oh, you did? The historian?

MRS. THOMAS: Yeah. Her parents sent over. I stayed with them. That’s when I

remember seeing all of these cows. I had never seen a cow before.

MR. KAYE: Did you go to see a movie? Of course, you could see movies at Fort Yukon

in those days.

MRS. THOMAS: Yeah we did years ago. It was different! It was a big city to us!

MR. KAYE: Well, I want to thank you both for giving us so much interesting

information about life up there. I look forward to talking to you again about it.