Bruce Cannaday and Pauline Cannaday oral history transcript

              Interview with Bruce Cannady (age 90)

(and his wife Pauline)

Interviewed by: Jerry C. Grover March 23, 2000

Bruce Cannady:...took three days, and I made how much? I forget, but I

made as much in those three days than I generally made.Öto Washington,

then I was expecting an answer, and here I am reading this letter about

Fish and Wildlife Service, and I donít even understand what Iím trying to

read because this, this was 40 years or so, and I just figured, well, Iíd

forgotten about it. But as it happens, I was caught, when was it, about in

March. Didnít really have a job...

Pauline Cannady: Do you want a pill?

Bruce Cannady: Öso I said, well, what shall I do? Pauline says, ìWhy donít

we go over and just ask for a job, and maybe we can go over to Denver or

somewhere.î

Pauline Cannady: I worked at Woolworthís in Scottís Bluff, Nebraska.

Bruce Cannady: She was working at the time.

Jerry Grover: You were at Scottís Bluff when this happened?

Bruce Cannady: Yes.

Jerry Grover: Weíre talking with Bruce Cannady, retired Deputy Regional

Supervisor for Fisheries or for Hatcheries in Region 1, [and his wife

Pauline]. The batteries are working now so we can go ahead with the

story. Anyway, Scottís Bluff, Nebraska, and youíre applying for a job with

the Fish and Wildlife Service.

Bruce Cannady: Right, and we got it. Wound up with the idea when we

went up to Leadville, Colorado that if after three months, if we didnít like

it, weíd go back to Denver to look around.

Jerry Grover: Are these summer months or winter months?

Bruce Cannady: We went up on the 4th of April, 1939, and I wound up

getting a job for 32 years instead of three months, and stayed there for

about two and a half years. They sent me out to Washington...

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Pauline Cannady: Carson.

Bruce Cannady: Carson, Washington. That wasnít the place that you

worked at.

Jerry Grover: No, I wasnít out here at Carson.

Bruce Cannady: No, but I mean the way it looked when I was there.

Jerry Grover: It was nicer?

Bruce Cannady: It was a beautiful little place, but I tell you, they couldnít

raise fish there at all, really, because they didnít have any ponds. So we

were there one year, sent to California to Coleman [National Fish

Hatchery]. We were there five and a half years. While I was first year

there, I was at the old hatchery [substation] that they finally closed.

Jerry Grover: Battle Creek.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, Battle Creek, then I went up to Coleman and

stayed there until ë48, and then they sent us to, back believe it or not.

Pauline says, ìOh no.Öî

Pauline Cannady: Back to Carson again.

Bruce Cannady: She had no more idea of wanting to go back to Carson

than the man in the moon. But then we were there one year, and then

they sent us to Cortland.

Jerry Grover: What grade were you hired in at, Bruce?

Bruce Cannady: When I...

Jerry Grover: When you went to Leadville.

Bruce Cannady: When I was at Leadville, and an unknown thing at that

time, I think they called it the Apprentice Fish Culturist.

Pauline Cannady: Apprentice Fish Culturist.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, Apprentice Fish Culturist, and I was in that, what,

two years.

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Pauline Cannady: And they, they could have you leave after what, six

months or...

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Pauline Cannady:...if they werenít satisfied.

Jerry Grover: Mm-hmm (indicating affirmatively), probationary.

Pauline Cannady: Yeah.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, the old probationary, yeah, and then when I landed,

I was called a Junior Fish Culturist when I was at Carson, and then when I

went to Battle Creek, what did they call it then? They called...

Pauline Cannady: Assistant Superintendent.

Bruce Cannady: Senior Fish Culturist, Senior Fish Culturist, I donít

remember exactly. I wasnít in charge. I was working for...

Jerry Grover: John Connor.

Bruce Cannady: No, I worked for, he died, and then I was acting manager

for three or four months.

Pauline Cannady: He was dying of cancer, and so Bruce...

Bruce Cannady: Can you remember his name? Isnít that awful? Thatís

my...

Jerry Grover: Thatís a half a century ago though.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, but thatís my problem anymore. And then I was

there, oh, about a year when I went up to Coleman, and I worked then as

a foreman, something like that, foreman fish culturist? No, it wasnít that.

Foreman what? I was in charge of, they had this thing all cut up in some

fashion and I donít really remember, but I was...

Jerry Grover: The organization, youíre talking about?

Bruce Cannady: I was in the...

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Pauline Cannady: You was in the money or something for something you

invented.

Bruce Cannady: What was that? I got a special award for that didnít I?

Pauline Cannady: Yes.

Bruce Cannady: Something, I donít remember.

Pauline Cannady: Brought the little fish and so forth, you know.

Bruce Cannady: Anyway, I was there, what, five years. Then they sent

me [as] the manager at Carson, and I felt pretty good because Iíd, Iíd

come in and not knowing anything about what I was getting into, and nine

years later I was manager, and most of the fellows around there had

either never made manager or they made it later.

Jerry Grover: Were those GS grades at that time with Manager?

Bruce Cannady: I was, I was a 6 I think, at that time. Yeah, I know I was a

6 because just a year or two later they moved us, and we had to do it

twice. We moved from a 7 and then to a 9, and that was about, well, Iíd

been at Carson, Iíd been to Cortland [,New York Training School] and

back. I went as a 6. God, thatís what everybody was, 5 or 6. Then we

come back as a, and I come back as a 9 about a year later. Well, a 7 and

then a 9, and I was there from 1948 to Cortland and back...

Pauline Cannady: 1957.

Bruce Cannady: ë50 and in 1957 I came...

Pauline Cannady: We came to Walker.

Jerry Grover: Where were you between 1950 and ë57? You were at

Carson or at Cortland?

Bruce Cannady: Seven years...

Pauline Cannady: They remodeled it all for them ponds and...

Jerry Grover: In Carson.

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Pauline Cannady: He was heading up all that remodeling.

Jerry Grover: Okay, they had just the three houses that were there.

Bruce Cannady: Oh yeah, but they built the other houses and put in

ponds.

Pauline Cannady: Put in these apartments.

Bruce Cannady: That was done when I was there.

Pauline Cannady: And all those ponds.

Jerry Grover: And all the ponds?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: Okay, and then you came, in ë57 then you came to the

Regional Office in Portland [, Oregon].

Bruce Cannady: I came in as Assistant Regional Supervisor in ë57.

Jerry Grover: What grade was that?

Bruce Cannady: It was a 12. Well, I came in as 11. Letís see, again, I was

a 9. I had to wait a year, got my 11, and then another year to 12.

Jerry Grover: Okay.

Bruce Cannady: But thatís what practically everybody was having to do if

they moved into the office, because you know, theyíve always had this

little problem of when people are promoted, and I held there until, well I

was a 13 when I retired.

Pauline Cannady: You had gone to Washington, DC between that time.

Bruce Cannady: 1950, after Iíd been there three years, they sent me to

Washington, DC in a training program. I was here, well first they called me

in about September and kept me in Washington until December. Then I

come home; I was home 17 day. They sent me back in for a training

program, middle, middle management training from January until June,

and then I come back to Portland and they...

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Pauline Cannady: He wouldnít stay there.

Bruce Cannady: Now, let me tell that story in my way. When I come back

to Portland, they wanted me to go back to Washington and stay there

and take my chances on wherever I wanted. I had a couple of things that

was wrong. First, I didnít have a degree which was never, I always figured

that was going to always be three strikes on me anyway because

practically, well I think everybodyÖ

Jerry Grover: You didnít have a fisheries degree or you didnít have a

college degree?

Bruce Cannady: I didnít have a college degree.

Pauline Cannady: Some college classes heíd had but...

Bruce Cannady: Oh, I had some here and there, and even when I was in

Washington, DC up there in that middle management I picked up six

credits in George Washington University. And anyway, people, including

Abe Tunnison and Ray Johnson, Bill Hagen all wanted me to come back

there, and I was a little reluctant, very reluctant in fact, because the more

I thought, the more Iím probably going to wind up with a Washington

office somewhere back, and I liked it here. I had a home here.

Pauline Cannady: But there was, you also liked the hatcheries and they

werenít so interested in hatcheries.

Bruce Cannady: Well, you spent your time in Washington, DC, and you

know that itís different.

Jerry Grover: I had two trips, yeah.

Bruce Cannady: Itís a different climate.

Jerry Grover: Yes, it is.

Bruce Cannady: Completely different climate.

Jerry Grover: Well, the people at the timeÖdid Bill Hagen have a college

degree?

Bruce Cannady: Oh, yes. Everybody had it.

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Jerry Grover: Everybody. The people that were back there then, so you

were, you felt all out of place then?

Bruce Cannady: Well, when I was, when I was in [Portland], the Assistant

Director, I mean, Assistant Regional Director Barnaby had his masterís and

he begged me to go to Washington, and I kept telling him I could go and

Iím sure Iím smart enough, but I know a few people in Washington that

would resent the hell out of anybody that would even think they should

have any kind of a promotion, and Iím not going to get into this, and I

didnít.

Pauline Cannady: And so when he come home, they called me and talked

to me, tried to, said, ìGet him to come to Washington.î

Jerry Grover: Who was that? Is that Barnaby or was it Bill Hagen?

Pauline Cannady: No, I donít, I donít...

Bruce Cannady: Bill Hagen sat, stood in my house one evening, told

Pauline, ìGoddam it, youíve got to get him to go back there or heís just

going to sit here and rot.î So I sat here and rotted.

Pauline Cannady: And he enjoyed it.

Jerry Grover: Okay. So now youíre out here. You were, you said you

came out when you came back from Washington DC under the training

program. You came back as what, essentially the same job?

Bruce Cannady: When I came here, see, when I came here in ë57, Ned

Tuddle was the Supervisor of Hatcheries, and I was the Assistant, and

that was it. There was two of us was all. Just before I left in 1960 to go

back to this, that, and the other, Martv Smith came in, and I approved him

in fact. He had to have my approval because weíve got to have a man;

what would you think of Martv Smith? I thought heíd be great. Anyway,

and then he came and I, I had to leave, and I was gone about eight

months or so, or nine. So the two of them handled it then. So when I

come back for the first time, we had three. Well a little later, (I donít

remember just when) Ray Vaughan came in and worked for us a couple of

years, and then Paul Handy; he left. [Butterball] was here. Oh, we had a

lot of nice people going through here and going up, and up, and up. Paul

Handy and John Miller were here up until the time I retired. I was the,

somewhere in there, I became a, the Deputy, it isnít Deputy, what do they

call it? Anyway...

Cannady 8

Pauline Cannady: You were working with  then.

Bruce Cannady: Well, this, this was a little different. This, about five

years before I retired, which would be about 1966, Kimmerick, when I

came into Washington, wanted me to, he said, ìOne of these days Iím

going to be going, and Iíve been in the hatchery building or whatever has

been going on, and you better kind of watch and do whatever you have

to do as you go along because this is going to happen.î Well, he was right

because about 1960, I donít know, mid-í60's was when we had, began to

things like the big one out at Spring Creek.

Jerry Grover: The rebuilding the Spring Creek.

Bruce Cannady: And the one out at Dworshak.

Jerry Grover: Dworshak Hatchery. Before that Kooskia.

Bruce Cannady: Well, I also was into it for the State here in...

Jerry Grover: On Bonneville.

Bruce Cannady: Bonneville. I was into some of the work that was being

done in the Warm Springs down in California. I had...

Jerry Grover:

Well, Quinalt and Makah Hatcheries up in northwest Washington, the

spawning channel at Red Bluff.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, yeah. That was, Dan Slaters agreed to have that.

Well, and then I kind of helped out here and there on that, and anyway...

Jerry Grover: So you were basically into the constructions, money bag

organizing?

Bruce Cannady: The last five years I was, had a hand in, and one of the

reasons I retired, we began to, we planned to move these where they

were beginning to be constructed or was already half finished or wherever

we were, and one day the Corp called me from Walla Walla and started

telling me about the hatcheries that was going to have to be built on

eastern Washington, what they called, oh what was the name of these?

Jerry Grover: That would be the Lower Snake River Compensation Plan.

Cannady 9

Bruce Cannady: They wanted, they wanted me to, they said, I said, ìgood

Lord, this will take five years just to get the thing lined up and get people

thinking it would be a good idea, and Iím not going to wait that long,î and

they kept bothering me so I retired, and it was never built. It was not

planned finally. It would have been if I had been there, I think, but I donít

know, because I didnít stay long enough.

Jerry Grover: So you retired then in 1961.

Bruce Cannady: ë71.

Jerry Grover: ë71.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah. I was 58 years old. 32 years of service, and I had

planned to wait until I was at least, well, maybe even 62, certainly 60, and

the day that I went down to tell John Finnely that I was going to retire,

you wouldnít believe it. We ate lunch, John and Gib Basset and a little

group of us, and one of them said, ìHell, youíre not going to retire

because we donít even have any word about that.î The other one said,

ìOh yes, we did.î It just fell on his lap just about 20 minutes ago.

Pauline Cannady: You .

Bruce Cannady: Oh, thatís another hatchery.

Jerry Grover: Lahontan.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, I was in on the end of that too. I was into, I

suppose I could sit down and probably count, there was probably eight or

ten of them, at least.

Jerry Grover: And if they were built brand new they were reconstructed,

like Spring Creek.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, but some of them were new. Quinalt was new.

Jerry Grover: Quinalt and Makah, yeah.

Bruce Cannady: And so was the...

Jerry Grover: Warm Springs for tribal.

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Bruce Cannady: Yeah, that was new, and the one in California was new.

Jerry Grover: Tehama-Colusa.

Bruce Cannady: The Russian River.

Jerry Grover: Yeah, the Russian River. Thatís the one that California

ended up operating. It was a Corps of Engineers [project].

Bruce Cannady: Well, most of the time I knew, the one that finally come

out that I thought was going to be built by the State fell apart and we

wound up with Spring Creek [National Fish Hatchery]. It was just one of

those things. Because I was working with the states and we all knew

what the policies were, and we might argue and talk about it, but when

we got down to talking finally, like Bonneville, there was no question

about where it was going to be and how much it was going to be. But

they were expecting one person to kind of carry the ball.

Jerry Grover: They, the Corps?

Bruce Cannady: When I went to work with the Corps, hardly anybody was

speaking with the Fish and Wildlife Service. It took me three years to get

some fences mended, and when I finally got the fences mended with a lot

of other help, guess what? -- you just stood back and got out of the

way, because they were going to build places like Dworshak whether you

wanted it or not.

Jerry Grover: Well, Dworshak, as I understand it, was going to be a state

operated hatchery until halfway through and then Idaho backed out. Was

that a surprise?

Bruce Cannady: Not really, because I was almost sure that the Federal

Government was going to build it because I had been talking along with

the Corps, and we were talking about the State. We had to pay state, I

had the state aboard on every meeting we had and it was all at once

clear. They said, ìJesus, this thingís going to be pretty big, isnít it?î And I

said, ìYou better believe it.î ìWell, whoís going to finance it?î And I said,

ìWell, thatís something we have to begin to work out pretty soon,

because thereís going to be a lot of money involved,î and I said, well what

really broke it, I donít know who the boss was, but heís one of the people

that come in and he said, ìWell, what we want to do is give us the money

and we will go ahead and build it.î And I said, ìYou people are foolish.î If

they ask you, like, weíll say four million dollars, and youíre three-fourths

full, finished, what are you going to do then, dig up your own money? I

said, ìThe Corps will never do that.î ìWell, what will you do?î I said, ìJust

tell

Cannady 11

the Corps to build it, and it doesnít matter.î It wound up ten million

dollars is what it finally wound up, and thatís when the Governor, whoever

he was at the time, said, ìWait a minute, weíre not going to get into

anything like this. This is too big for you. We donít have anything in

Idaho like this.î So it was built by the, by us, and thatís what happened.

Jerry Grover: And then operated by us. We moved John .

Bruce Cannady:  still is. Iíve lost track because, I canít believe

that itís been 30 years since all that stuff, and you know, since I, when I

retired, except what was on the board to build, I donít think thereís been

anything built since then. Theyíve talked about a couple up here, and Iíve

often thought, if I was still working, if I was still working, I know of two of

them in Washington that would have been built, and the State would have

operated them. One of them was...

Jerry Grover: .

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: Okay now, they did build that one, and the Indians are

operating it.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover:

Thatís because itís on the reservation.

Bruce Cannady: But they donít, I donít think theyíve got, of course, I

never really liked them to start, but...

Pauline Cannady: Can I say something? I donít know whether you want

me to say it or not.

Jerry Grover: Pauline, now wives are, spouses are included.

Pauline Cannady: The idea of taking out the dams is going way back.

They gave up with the buggies, and oh, you have to go ahead. You

cannot turn back.

Bruce Cannady: Well, thereís a whole lot of people whoíd like to turn

them back, take out all the dams.

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Jerry Grover: Thatís a major issue. Were those addressed of the impact

of those dams on the fish, the biology department?

Bruce Cannady: I was right in the middle of that. I was only 58, again,

because I can tell you right now I would have been in there telling them

that donít be foolish now, donít be foolish on this and leave it alone in the

first place. The biggest mistake that was ever made right now is marking

fish. We had enough data 30 years ago to know that about 90 percent

of the fish come out of hatcheries and 10 percent are wild. That has

never changed in 30 years; not one bit. And you know what with all that

beautiful data, they could have stopped marking fish 30 years ago and

say, 90 percent of these are fish hatchery, and you know, they wouldnít

be able to know the difference if they hadnít marked, marked them all this

time and clipped off a fin every time they did that.

Pauline Cannady: They had, the poor little fish from the hatcheries were

three-fourths dead before they ever got into the water.

Jerry Grover: Well, I know when I was involved in the fin clipping thing, it

was kind of addressed as the annual maiming program. The first thing

that went was the adipose, and then you chose between a right or a left

ventral.

Bruce Cannady: And now they keep arguing about, well these fish are not

as good as the wild fish. Well why not?

Jerry Grover: You donít believe that argument, Bruce?

Bruce Cannady: Do you think that you could take off a couple of fins and

not harm them? That doesnít even make sense.

Pauline Cannady: You think you could handle a little tiny fish and take all

that...

Bruce Cannady: See, sheís an old, she spent several springs marking fish.

Jerry Grover: You were part of the fish marking crew? Like a lot of the

hatchery wives did that...

Pauline Cannady: Yes.

Jerry Grover: ...picked up a little part time money going down and

clipping?

Bruce Cannady: Did Judy do any of that?

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Jerry Grover: Yes, she did. She clipped fins at Coleman until she was blue

in the face.

Pauline Cannady: I did it in California. Then I did it again in the state of

Washington.

Bruce Cannady: But it was a good way to make money and work a few

months.

Jerry Grover: Yeah, at the rate they paid you, it was always a little extra

money.

Bruce Cannady: Sure.

Jerry Grover: And Judy, for example, split a job. I mean, we both had

little kids, and so one would clip in the morning and look after the kids,

and the other one would clip in the afternoon while the other one looked

after the kids. You know so, you know, and they, but they each got four

hours work in, and so they had a little pocket money.

Bruce Cannady: Well, I thought it was great, but I still think if theyíd just

stop marking fish, theyíd all be better off and save an awful lot of money.

But I donít know where itís going to go anyway. I have no idea.

Pauline Cannady: Well, they wonít have any fish if take out the dams,

because itís going to rile up all that under the area, you know, and the

fish canít stand that.

Bruce Cannady: All the sludge. Theyíve got a lot of those going here in

downtown Portland.

Jerry Grover: Dredging the [Willamette River], youíre talking about.

Pauline Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: Stirring up the sediment.

Pauline Cannady: But a time when Bruce was still at the hatchery in the

state of Washington, they cleaned up the . It was all pure and

clean, and I donít know what, the first thing I know they just forget it.

After they do something, they donít think they have to maintain it. The

same way with buildings. They feel like if they build it, why then they

donít have to do a thing to take care of it. From the date, if you buy a

house...

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Bruce Cannady: Maintenance programs have always been on the low...

Jerry Grover: Yes.

Bruce Cannady: ...lowest part of...

Jerry Grover: And that was part of the areas you looked at too, the

cyclical maintenance, trying to get money just to...

Bruce Cannady: Just trying to get enough money to keep things going,

and I remember that one year that I was in Washington, DC and I was

talking to Abe Tunnison, and Abe knew the, he knew the figures because

heíd been with them for several years. He told me one day, he said, ìYou

know, weíd like to have one and a half million dollars just in maintenance,

and you know what weíre going to get?î I said, ìWhat?î ì900,000,î he

said, ìIf we could just get a million and a half every year.î When I went to,

when I, when they brought in Dworshak the first year, I helped put the

budget together with the Corps. I said, ìI want a million dollars.î ìA million

dollars? Itís brand new.î I said, ìIn the first place, weíre going to spend a

million just correcting all the things that are not done right during

construction, and then after that we need it just to keep things going well

as we go along, because there will be a lot of things that weíll find out

that should have been done right during construction and wasnít done,î

and I said, ìWhen we finally get through with this we will find out that we

should have that ten percent from day one, not wait until about the 15th

year and then try to catch up, because you never catch up.î

Jerry Grover: Good philosophy. How come that never sold, unless,

except with Dworshak?

Bruce Cannady: Because itís maintenance. You will never solve a

maintenance program anywhere because you donít cut, clip clippings, I

mean, cut ribbons like they do on a new one, whatever you...

Jerry Grover: Yes, okay. So even with Abe, you think Abe was an able

leader as far as being able to get money into the budget? Was there a

leadership problem in Washington, or is it just the acceptance of

Congress?

Bruce Cannady: I donít know about Abe or Carson. I didnít know him, I

didnít know he as well as I did Tom Barnaby, and I always remember what

Tom said once about people. He said, ìYou know, I was in research for 20,

25 years before I wound up as an administrator,î and he said, ìI will tell

you right now,î and by the way I did this for my 50th, I said, ìAnyone that

starts out to get a

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degree in anything should have to take administration, public

administration, whatever. Just, if nothing else, a couple of classes as you

go to know what budgets are and this sort of thing,î because if you go in

as an...

Pauline Cannady: Engineer.

Bruce Cannady: Well, engineer or chemist or whatever, you are not even

going to think about budgets or money or anything like that. How many

classes did you have in administration? Did you...

Jerry Grover: Gee, I donít know, I had... high points.

Bruce Cannady: Good high points, and it seemed like every time

something like Spring Creek finally fell into our lap and expanded

Dworshak, but it seemed like every one of these was some kind of a high

spot because I felt like, and the people and myself were really doing

something well for everybody in the long, long run.

Jerry Grover: And the resource?

Bruce Cannady: And the resource. Iím still a hatchery man because I

think that the people that thought up hatcheries 125 years ago were on

the right track then, and they still are on the right track, and if they

hadnít have been on it I donít know where we would be with Salmon

today.

Jerry Grover: Are you saying that without hatcheries you donít think

thereíd be Salmon in the Columbia River, for example?

Bruce Cannady: If theyíd have never, if nobody had figured out a way to

have hatcheries, what would have happened? Not very, nothing very

good would have happened because they would have finished catching

every Salmon. They of course, theyíre doing that with others too. But

for low points, I donít know. I was disappointed when I didnít get to be

Regional Supervisor and Smith got it. That was kind of a blow because I

thought I was told that I was going to get it.

Jerry Grover: Okay.

Bruce Cannady: And in fact, I had been told it by three or four high

people. Then it was found out that Ned was retiring. I thought it was,

turned out that it was a man in Washington had another idea, so that was

that.

Cannady 16

Jerry Grover: Okay.

Bruce Cannady: And Smith and I got along very well through the years. I

mean, weíre good friends. We play bridge together. Heís a better bridge

player than I am.

Jerry Grover: Well, that is dangerous. Iíve always understood, listened to

Eisenhower. I mean,  wouldnít play bridge with Dwight, I mean,

because he always yelled at her, and so she always had to go sit at

another table.

Bruce Cannady: Smith did his own yelling, too.

Pauline Cannady: About his retirement, they had a retirement and all the,

all those folks that heíd worked with in the state...

Bruce Cannady: That was the biggest, that was the biggest, were you

here then?

Jerry Grover: No, I think in that year I would have been, you retired when,

in ë71?

Pauline Cannady: ë72.

Jerry Grover: ë72.

Bruce Cannady: ë71.

Pauline Cannady: ë71, yes.

Jerry Grover: I was in DC at the, I was going through the Departmental

training program, so I was not here.

Bruce Cannady: Well, I donít think theyíve had another one after that that

was as big as that. Hughey, Art Hughey and I were in there. Art went

first. Art knew, he was an engineer, and well, he knew the people inside

and a few others, but not really like I had. I couldnít believe, the old

Columbia Edgewater was absolutely crammed, and they had come from

California and Nevada and all over the place.

Cannady 17

Pauline Cannady: All the states that he had .

Bruce Cannady: Every one that Iíd ever worked with.

Pauline Cannady: And every .

Bruce Cannady: Goddam, they showed up, and I tell you, it just made me

feel good. Talk about a high spot, now there was a high spot.

Pauline Cannady: They gave him things.

Jerry Grover: Good.

Pauline Cannady: Yeah, that was nice, very nice.

Jerry Grover: If you had to categorize all those things that you did, what

was the most pressing issue that you had to address? Which is the

button that seemed to push the hardest or lit up the biggest?

Bruce Cannady: There, in the...

Jerry Grover: In, in your, in your job here in the Regional Office.

Bruce Cannady: Thatís what I mean.

Jerry Grover: Yeah.

Bruce Cannady: One of my big, one of my high spots, believe it or not,

was coming to the Regional Office.

Jerry Grover: Okay.

Bruce Cannady: I never expected to make it; never even thought of it for

several years until I went, Pauline and I had gone to, down to New Orleans,

all the ways down for a trip. I think it was May or June, and I had just got

back. I was feeling pretty good. Weíd had such a lot of fun and so forth.

I said, ìYou know, we ought to do this more often,î and so on and so

forth, and Kimmerick and Bill Hagen and, they  me, and one of

the fellows, he was a predecessor of Abeís. He was a predecessor of Abe

Tunnison. I think he was there. I think there was three of us, and they

had stopped, and we were going, I think we were going into lunch or

something, and Iíd gotten in the back seat.

Cannady 18

One of them was driving, and all at once one of them, we were just

, one of them turned around, they said, ìWould you mind going

to Portland to the Regional Office one of these days?î Thatís a high spot.

Jerry Grover: It would be. Out of your career has there been someone,

Bruce, that you could point to that had been a particular mentor or

somebody that really influenced you, been helpful? Is there a single

individual?

Bruce Cannady: Two of them. I think Al Kimmerick and Tom Barnaby.

They were both, when I came into the Regional Office, they were bothÖAl

had just been Assistant Regional Director, and he had moved into this new

job at the same level as the Regional Director on this program they were

going to have that had just started not too long after the war, doing

something, not just hatcheries, everything, and of course still trying to

do, he was in that. Of course, Tom Barnaby was Assistant Regional

Director, both of them, for a long time. Now like I said earlier, I never

thought of them as . I liked them both, and I liked them so well

that when I retired, (well they both retired ahead of me) when I retired,

we kept right on visiting back and forth. In fact, up until a couple of

years before Kimmerick died, we had a meeting down in southern Portland

or else down at Salem once a month, just chewing the fat. People like

Harland Johnson was there all the time. We just got together. We liked

each other, and kind of a friendship thing that was far beyond whatever

we did at hatcheries.

Jerry Grover: It was far beyond co-workers or...

Pauline Cannady: Tell them about Harland Johnson having, once every fall

we all got together.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, you knew about Harland having...

Jerry Grover: Yeah, yeah.

Bruce Cannady: ...annual meeting.

Jerry Grover: Called ìThe Retireesî.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: Yeah, I wasnít a retiree when he was doing that, and then

when I got retired, why, he had passed.

Bruce Cannady: Went down, God, he didnít last long.

Cannady 19

Pauline Cannady: Oh, we loved that. We all got together.

Bruce Cannady: Oh, yeah. You would have enjoyed that. Marv come to

that every year too, after he retired. Marv was in about, I think he was in

four or five

years after I retired. I donít really remember, but I remember him telling

me once that, that he (and I didnít know that until he told me a little

later), he said, ìYou know, when I finally retired they were about ready to

throw me out of here.î I said, ìYouíre kidding.î ìWell,î he said, ìit wasnít

that. I can last as long as ever, but,î he said, ìthey had taken away a lot

of things we used to do.î Are they still doing those things like in

hatcheries and so forth? Are they reorganizing?

Jerry Grover: Well, at the time that I think Marv was talking about was

when they were reorganizing and going into area offices. And the

Regional Supervisor for Fisheries, a lot of the operations were going out

to these three, three Regional Offices. Had one in Olympia, one in Boise,

and one in Sacramento.

Bruce Cannady: Thatís what he was talking about.

Jerry Grover: And so they just, kind of the stuff that was being done in

the Regional Office, and then talking with Marv, he was unhappy with that.

They demoted him from a 14 to 13.

Bruce Cannady: He told me some about it, but I didnít ask him too much.

Well, I asked him what it was all about, but I donít remember exactly, but

thatís been 20 years ago or so.

Jerry Grover: Yeah, that was a trial. They were reorganizing, they still

are, Bruce. Things havenít changed.

Bruce Cannady: Somebody told me awhile back about, and they were

telling me, and I said, ìGee, that sounds like the one in 1957 when they

called them Tom, Dick, and Harry.î Tom Barnaby, Dick Griffith, and Harry;

he was the head of River Basins or whatever. He was one of them. They

were the three original. They said, and I thought it, that was the way it

was when I come in, and they said...

Jerry Grover: Reorganization, youíre talking about.

Bruce Cannady: They had that organization going for about four or five

years, and then all at once they scrapped it and did something else, and

they were telling me, he was describing what was going on, and I said,

ìJesus, that sounds like the one they had in 1957.î

Cannady 20

Jerry Grover: Well, how many reorganization changes did you see in the

Service? You talk about the Tom, Dick, and Harry, and we were just

mentioning area offices.

Bruce Cannady: I come in in ë39...and the Bureau of Fisheries, and they

didnít, and the Wildlife people were over in a separate field. ë41, they

pulled them back for the first time together.

Jerry Grover: Bureau of Sport Fisheries and Wildlife.

Bruce Cannady: Fish and Wildlife, yeah, Bureau of Sport Fisheries, no, this

was the one ahead of that. They had that together. Then I went through

that before I even left Leadville, and then when I came to, in fact, they

finally were just getting their first people together into, I called

Albuquerque. I was in Leadville. I was supposed to come out here [to

Portland], and Iíd waited for, theyíd even stopped sending me checks, and

I tried this one and that one. They were out of the office. Well, I wound

up [talking] to the Regional Director and I explained to him. He said, ìIíll

get into it. Iíll let you know about it.î Boy, did I. Two days later I had my

papers.

Pauline Cannady: Theyíd already shipped our furniture. We were without

our furniture, sleeping on the floor.

Bruce Cannady: We shipped our furniture from Colorado clear out here to

Washington, and I donít know, I still donít know where everything was or

what they did, but Iíll tell you, he called and he must have moved

somebody because I had papers and was on my way in two days. And

then the next, the next one they had was just before I came into the

office because that was the Tom, Dick, and Harry, and Leo Lace and that

group, and then they had another one. Well, that was a, that was in ë57.

By ë58 and 9 was when they split the Commercial Fisheries out, away,

and left us Bureau of Sport Fisheries, which is wildlife, Wildlife and Sport

Fisheries.

Jerry Grover: And then the Bureau of, Bureau of Commercial Fisheries.

Bruce Cannady: That was the one, that was my second one, if you call it

one. Yeah, thatís my second one. Now, that went on until about the time

I retired. They were already talking about another one, and right after

that they set up these Regional or District Offices, or whatever they

called them. When was this, about 1972 or 3?

Jerry Grover: 1971. Reorganization plan number four that the President

signed

Cannady 21

created  and National Marine Fisheries Service, and they moved

Commercial Fish over into there and called them .

Bruce Cannady: That was in 19...

Jerry Grover: That was 1971, October 10th, and the reorganization plan,

and they dropped the...

Pauline Cannady: Thatís when he retired.

Jerry Grover: And they dropped the name Sports Fisheries and Wildlife

and just said Fish and Wildlife Service, which is what weíve been since.

Bruce Cannady: Think theyíll ever bring them together?

Jerry Grover: Well, I understand Bruce, that last week Secretary Babbitt

said they need to be together.

Pauline Cannady: Thereís another highlight. He had another highlight. He

went to Red Bluff and he got there on the train, and he was getting off

the train, and here was a band and everything, and he thought, ìWoah, a

movie star probably is coming off.î He got off, and they were honoring

him, the whole city. They gave him a Stetson and they, I donít know what

all they gave him.

Bruce Cannady: That was about two weeks before I retired, and I was...

Jerry Grover: That was over, that was because of Tehama-Colusa.

Bruce Cannady: A bunch of Red Bluff, Iíve gotten pretty well acquainted

being in and out of there, and I remember I was, got in late, about 6:00 or

so, and whatís his name took me over to this, oh, there was about eight

or ten in the group.

Jerry Grover: Was Dale [Schonaman] there then?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, [Schonaman]. They had sandwiches, and we got

to visiting and God, I guess 10:00 or so. So I kind of got acquainted with

all these guys, and then all at once when they decided to have this affair

they really bowled me over. I didnít know about that at all. They just,

that was right out of, I thought this band and everything, they were going

to have a parade of some kind. It turned out the whole damn thing was

for me.

Cannady 22

Jerry Grover: Interesting.

Bruce Cannady: Anyway, another high spot is all.

Pauline Cannady: We are glad that he stayed with the Service.

Jerry Grover: Overall, would you gauge that itís been a good career and

the Fish and Wildlife Service is good to work for?

Bruce Cannady: If I had to go over and do it again, Iím sure I would. I

might like one or two of the spots we could do without, but what the hell,

you have to take the good and the bad and the bad and the good, so...

Jerry Grover: But there was more good than bad?

Bruce Cannady:  was a good one, and I think that I had a lot to

do with things. Youíve been in your career. Youíre now retired. Can you

look back and feel like you did a lot of good while you were there? You

have to.

Jerry Grover: Oh, I do. I didnít, you know, some folks left with a red ass.

You know, they walked out the door of the Fish and Wildlife Service and

never look back and I donít feel that way at all. I gave 36 and a half years

of my life. I felt that I did. I liked the Fish and Wildlife Service. I too

would do it again.

Bruce Cannady: Well, I used to say, if you donít enjoy what youíre doing,

by God you better get another line of work because itís only one road

that youíre going down, and if youíre not going to be happy while youíre

going, you better find another road of doing it.

Jerry Grover: Have you found people were jealous of the job that you

had, envious?

Bruce Cannady: I, when I thought of it, I immediately discarded it because

I thought that it was a waste of time trying to decide whether you were

liked. When I was a boss, as a manager out there, you know when youíre

in here itís a different, itís a different deal. Itís like if you were in

Washington; thatís a different deal. Everything is different. When I was

out there I always had, I used to say, you know, ìbeing a manager is the

toughest job of allî because youíre trying to make people happy, and you

canít make people happy. I always remember Tom, or John Pelner. When

I was leaving to come up to Carson he said, ìBruce, remember this: no

matter what you do with those fellows, thereís going to be days. Theyíre

going to hate your guts,î and heís right. When youíre a manager

Cannady 23

thatís exactly what happens, and it took me six months, and when I run

into John the next time I said, ìI didnít think you were right, but you

probably are.î

Pauline Cannady: He only had one fellow leave, and he didnít want to fire

him, but he was so incompetent.

Bruce Cannady: Ben Crosby.

Pauline Cannady: Yeah, so he brought him in and talked to him and

everything like that. Finally, what did you do about him?

Bruce Cannady: I run into him once in Portland, and he was nice. Well, he

was a tough guy to...

Pauline Cannady: A college fellow.

Bruce Cannady: He graduated from the University of Wyoming, and he

was as out of his depth here as if he was in water 90 feet deep, and he

had the nicest wife and they were, in fact when I said I, it was five and a

half months, I said, ìIíve got to decide whether youíre going to go or not,

and I think you ought to go, really.î

Pauline Cannady: They had six month probation.

Bruce Cannady: ìYouíve just made enough mistakes that I think you ought

to go, and I donít like it.î And all he said, ìWell, thatís all right.î He said,

ìYou know, weíre expecting a baby, and I wonder if I could stick around

here for about another month or two.î I said, ìSure.î The only one that I

can swear that I finally, and I always remember the people in the office. I

told them that a couple of times that I had this problem and I might have

to let him go and, îOh yeah, weíll back you up, fine and dandy. Weíll back

you up.î Then when I had to drop it on the desk in paper, this guy is

going oh, good God. They just turned around about this 180 degrees.

Iím sure you had, you were in that same spot a few times.

Jerry Grover: Iíd like to back up just a minute here, back to the very

beginning. We kind of jumped over the track. We kind of jumped over

the track and get some...

Bruce Cannady: I hope you are not feeling like...

Jerry Grover: No, I donít want to take anymore of your time. But you

said you

Cannady 24

were born in Scottís Bluff, Nebraska.

Bruce Cannady: No, I was born in Central Park, Nebraska.

Jerry Grover:

Nebraska. You went to high school then in...

Bruce Cannady: I went to high school in a small school at McGrew, which

is in the county.

Jerry Grover: Okay. What was that, a farming community? What did

your folks do?

Bruce Cannady: Oh, Dad was a farmer.

Jerry Grover: Your dad was a farmer?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: How did you meet Pauline?

Bruce Cannady: I, another gal and I had split up is the best way I can say,

and I went back over to McGrew and I knew there was a dance, and I went

to the dance, and there was a girl there and I met here.

Pauline Cannady:  she was a teacher, and he went to, first we

went to the church, didnít we?

Bruce Cannady: No, we were at, Albertineís Place.

Pauline Cannady: Well, they said that they were going to have a dance

afterwards, so we went there. I went with another fellow, but I got there

and I kept dancing with Bruce. I thought he was the one that brought me.

Bruce Cannady: And then she was surprised when the dance broke up

and Aldin showed up, and he said, ìWell, weíre ready to go,î and Pauline

looked at me kind of surprised. I liked her.

Pauline Cannady: Every time, every time, he lived in town, but Aldin lived

out in the country and heíd come in to see me, and Bruce would come

right over.

Jerry Grover: So after that it didnít take long I take it, that the love birds

kind of

Cannady 25

got in you...

Bruce Cannady: She moved to Scottís Bluff, and sooner or later, well, I

was at, I was at...

Jerry Grover: You were out of high school by then?

Bruce Cannady: Oh, yeah. I was in town, Bayard, and thatís where she

had graduated from high school. I worked at the sugar factory there.

Jerry Grover: Thatís when you were the chemist?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, and then, letís see, we went to...

Pauline Cannady: Heís younger than I am, and I didnít want to marry a

younger fellow.

Bruce Cannady: And then I finally decided she was right for me in 1934,

and boy things are really, anyway, Iím trying to think. I went to Scottís

Bluff. I was at the factory for five years at Bayard, and then I was up

there for two years. Oh, I was still at Bayard after we got married

because I stayed with your mother.

Pauline Cannady: Yeah.

Bruce Cannady: We only saw each other at the weekends...

Pauline Cannady: Well, you got mad and said...

Bruce Cannady: ...because you were working, you were working in Scottís

Bluff and I was working in Bayard.

Pauline Cannady: So we got married.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, we got married, 65 years of it.

Jerry Grover: 65. What year were you born?

Bruce Cannady: I was born in ë12.

Jerry Grover: 1912.

Cannady 26

Pauline Cannady: Iím 1909.

Jerry Grover: ë09.

Bruce Cannady: I got married when I was only 21.

Pauline Cannady: Iím what, 90 years old.

Jerry Grover: Good round number, excellent.

Bruce Cannady: I tell you, the reason, one of the reasons I got married is

it was right in the middle of, I got a job over here and she had a job here,

and we, and I had to walk about eight blocks, and weíd get together in

the evening, and Iíd walk home, and I finally said along in the spring, I said,

ìYou know, this is the silliest thing in the world.î You know, in these days

you just shack up and let it go at that. Well, those days you donít do it

that way. So I said one day, ìYou know, this is silly. Weíre both paying

rent and maybe we ought to just get married and move together, and we

would have more money and not be spending it for rent,î and Pauline

surprised me. She said, ìYou know, that sounds like a pretty good idea,î

and we was, oh about, we waited, remember, we waited until the Fourth

of July.

Pauline Cannady: Yeah, we both got days off.

Bruce Cannady: Six weeks we waited. We waited about six weeks, and

we both had the time off on, letís see, what was it, Saturday and Sunday.

Pauline Cannady: We got married the third of July in the evening.

Bruce Cannady: Well, we didnít want to wait until the fourth. We got

married on Friday evening so we could go somewhere over the weekend,

which we did. Gee, thatís funny.

Jerry Grover: How long was it then you started, the kids started coming

along then?

Bruce Cannady: Seven and a half years, one. No, she had told me, I

believe it was before me, when we began to think about, you know the

future, and she advised me that there would never be any children

because she had broken, had her back broken the year she got out of

high school, yeah, out of high school.

Cannady 27

Pauline Cannady: The doctor told me be sure and tell my boyfriend if we

got engaged, think of it to tell him that I may not be able to have any

children. So I did. Well, we didnít want any children then anyway.

Depression time and...

Bruce Cannady: Didnít have enough money to even do that.

Pauline Cannady: We werenít thinking of...

Bruce Cannady: So we went along and then, and then when I went to

work for the government, weíd been here two, two and a half years and

we made a trip out here, and that was the first time weíd ever been on

the West Coast, and so I said, ìWhy donít we move out to Washington?î

And I managed that, got all set up, moved in out here in the spring. Weíd

come back to Leadville and things were beginning to get to where I was

getting to be moved, and then she said she was pregnant. I said Iíll

always remember, I had a classic remark....

Pauline Cannady: Seven years.

Bruce Cannady: îYouíve got to be kidding!î Seven and a half years. We

were just suprised.

Pauline Cannady: We were happy as could be.

Bruce Cannady: So we went, so we left Leadville and got out here, and he

was born in May.

Jerry Grover: In Portland or in Carson?

Bruce Cannady: We landed out here in November, and Mike was born in

May.

Jerry Grover: Okay. There was Mike and then who else? Just Mike?

Bruce Cannady: Thatís it.

Jerry Grover: Did it once.

Bruce Cannady: And then she only had, they only have one.

Pauline Cannady: And Michael come over and said they werenít going to

have but the one, and I said, ìMichael, How can you say that?î ìWell,î he

said, ìI loved being an only child.î I said, ìYou never knew what it was like

to have sisters and brothers, you know.î

Cannady 28

Jerry Grover: Did you have lots of sisters and brothers? Did you grow up

with sisters?

Pauline Cannady: Yes, I had five sisters and two brothers.

Jerry Grover: What about you, Bruce?

Bruce Cannady: I only had one brother, and heís seven and a half years

younger than I am. We both started out in Nebraska. I wound up with

the Federal service, wandering around and finally landed in Portland. He

got a job out of Nebraska with Boeing up here at the end of the war.

When he got out of that, he got his degree at the University of

Washington and went to work in Seattle; wound up finally as Assistant

Planning Director here in Portland.

Jerry Grover: For Boeing?

Bruce Cannady: No, for the State, for the City of Portland.

Jerry Grover: Oh.

Bruce Cannady: And so we both wound up a few blocks from each other.

We started in a different place and wound up in the same place doing the

same, different, doing different things.

Pauline Cannady: Really nice.

Bruce Cannady: I have named people like Pelner and so on. Benny Cox --

did you know Benny?

Jerry Grover: I knew Benny. Knew John when I was at Coleman. John

would come by and coach the running of the hatchery down there.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, and you knew, of course you knew Harland.

Jerry Grover: I knew Harland and Steve Leak, who was his assistant.

Pauline Cannady: Harland Johnson.

Bruce Cannady: Do you know ?

Jerry Grover:

, I...

Cannady 29

Bruce Cannady: He died last year. His wifeís still living believe it or not.

Jerry Grover: Yeah, I know the names so much I get confused as to

whether I know them or not. I mean, Iíve heard about them for so many

years.

Bruce Cannady: He surprised me. He left a little sooner than I thought he

would, so I, that was before you came in. Iím trying to think, you were,

who did you follow? Did you follow...

Jerry Grover: Well, I came to the Region three different times, Bruce.

Bruce Cannady: You would think when you talk about a hatchery, we

always want to go get one of these guys thatís out of the eighth grade

somewhere.

Jerry Grover: And this was Bill Hagen that was telling you this and he was

Chief of Fish Hatcheries at the time?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, Chief of Fish Hatcheries.

Jerry Grover: Wanting to get...

Bruce Cannady: And when he got through expounding this he said, ìWhat

do you think?î And before of course, I could talk faster I guess, always

than Tuddle, but I said, ìWhen and how much, when, who?î He said, ìWhat

do you mean?î I said, ìI think we ought to have about six.î He said,

ìYouíre kidding.î I said, ìNo, Iím not kidding.î I said, ìI tell you, weíve got

to get these kind of people in.î

Jerry Grover: College graduates?

Bruce Cannady: Yes sir, and he said, ìFine and dandy.î Now, about this

time, Jimmy Warren come wandering into the office. Do you know

Jimmy?

Jerry Grover: Yes, I do.

Bruce Cannady: He come wandering in the office in uniform looking for a

job. Thatís how he come to be aboard with us because boy, Iíd be in a

snap, these people, right up, right now, like this, and I didnít know who he

was or what he was like, but I always remember that I asked for six

people, and I got them. You can name them probably today, because

practically every, Bill Walsdorf was one of them.

Cannady 30

Jerry Grover: Okay. I know  would have to be in that crowd or

close to it.

Bruce Cannady: Iím trying to think, know my names anymore.

Jerry Grover: You said Jim Warren.

Bruce Cannady: He wasnít one of that six. He was extra, and there was

another one.

Jerry Grover: Okay.

Bruce Cannady: Oh,  was in there.

Jerry Grover: Jack .

Bruce Cannady: I got him about, just happened to go to a meeting with

another guy down at  and we were given a little deal of

recruiting people, and two people showed up. One was , and we

got him on that deal, and this fellow, he went to, he finally went over to

Commercial Fisheries. God, he lived right over here at, well, he was one of

those. I canít even name the six now. Isnít that awful, my memory. I

used to know them all. But thatís when we got them in. The minute they

graduated we sent them through this two years. You worked at the

hatchery one year, then youíd go to Courtland and then youíd go to

Leetown, or vice versa, and all of that come right of that little

conversation that we had.

Jerry Grover: Russ Ferg, was he one of those?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: Okay.

Bruce Cannady: You can name them.

Jerry Grover: Iím trying to think of...

Bruce Cannady: Oneís in Idaho. He was in charge of fisheries in Idaho

with...

Jerry Grover: Ken Higgs.

Cannady 31

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, Ken Higgs. Oh, this other one, he moved over...

Jerry Grover: Well, I remember Walt and Bill Walsdorf. I remember those

back at the Leetown disease or fish health.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, he was one of the six. That was what sprung, we

got it going. That was...

Jerry Grover: That seemed like that was a major change or a major move

for the Fish and Wildlife Service and Fish Hatcheries to...

Bruce Cannady: This was what, you know, I worked with Bill Hagen and...

Pauline Cannady: You went to the college and talked to fellows.

Bruce Cannady: Well yeah, but, well yes. No, I even got a better story.

Those guys that sheís, that he just gave me is the ones that I asked for

the papers and they sent this pile of paper over, and I was going through

them and Iíd pick out these names, and one was Walsdorf. Walsdorf was

from Wisconsin. Higgs was from...

Jerry Grover: 

Bruce Cannady: , Ferg was out of University of Washington. I

think, whatís his name, Maynard is from, I think heís down here at

.

Jerry Grover: I think heís down at  too. Was Paul Himmerick

among those too?

Bruce Cannady: No, he was another one.

Jerry Grover: He was later.

Bruce Cannady: He came in when he was a sophomore with his father,

and he was wondering about getting into Fisheries and so forth, and I got

him to go on a student program that went on until he got his...

Jerry Grover: His BS.

Bruce Cannady: ...he graduated, yeah. Anyway, I just, it was Bill Hagen

that did it, and he did it there in about five minutes.

Cannady 32

Jerry Grover: And he changed forever the look of the Fish and Wildlife

Service.

Bruce Cannady: He sure as hell did. I always regretted a little, although.

What was the big guy that was at Carson?

Jerry Grover: Don [Zirjacks].

Bruce Cannady: No, he was bigger. He went to, he went to school, but

he went in Boston. He was in Boston, and then he came back out here.

Jerry Grover: Don [Zirjacks].

Bruce Cannady: . He was, he was a trainee, but it was some

kind...

Jerry Grover: He never got a degree. He was in the [GS] 488 series, but

they converted them all. He was grandfathered in, and he still was a

hatchery manager, and he managed Carson...

Bruce Cannady: And he was a good one.

Jerry Grover: ...until he retired.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: He was my assistant when I was up there.

Bruce Cannady: Is that right?

Jerry Grover: Then he went to the, he managed a hatchery back in

Region 5, <[Nashua] Hatchery.

Bruce Cannady: At one time I had the, I knew these guys and I knew the

program, and Iíd been there, I was in there day one.

Jerry Grover: Well good.

Bruce Cannady: Whatís his name thought it out, and I thought, ìJesus,

what a way to goî, and I had to, I had some criticism from different ones.

I always remember Tuddle said once, he said, ìYou know, at one time we

always thought if a guy worked hard he would go right on up until he

become a manager.î I said, ìWell, that hasnít changed, we just have a

bunch of people doing the same things.î

Cannady 33

Jerry Grover: Well, it kind of kick started these college graduates

because instead of starting as a Fish Culturist 1 or a GS-1, you started

them out as a GS-5. They got, they got up a few ladder rungs.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, but like, like, like I pointed out one day, I said, ìBy

the way, when these guys work around here for 5's or 7's, just remember

that some of these other fellows thatís on there,î what do they call it,

that other program, I said, ìTheyíre making pretty good money, too.î

Jerry Grover: Did you see any conflict with the people on board when you

started bringing these college people in, because you were showing them

some favoritism by bringing them in at a higher grade and then sending

them to Courtland after one year?

Bruce Cannady: I talked to some of them at the time and I said, ìYou

know, at least for a few years and probably as long as youíre working

youíll have the same chance as any one else, itís just going to be a little

bit tougher,î and it was, of course. We got some very good people. God,

I thought once, I spent an evening with Ken Higgs, and we got into two or

three arguments about this and that, and I was absolutely amazed. He

was so goddamn smart. I mean, he knew what he was talking about, and

that was the kind of people I wanted in the hatchery program.

Jerry Grover: Good. They all turned out to be successful, turned out to

be managers or hatchery biologists or station biologists like Walsdorf.

Bruce Cannady: I never, I never knew them. I had them on paper, and we

picked them, and I always remember that when they went to work (all six

of them) I told Ned one day, I said, ìYou know, weíre going to be lucky if

we keep two of these people.î And several years later I said, ìIíll be

damned, we kept all six of them.î Wasnít that something? But that was a

good, that was a good program.

Jerry Grover: Well, I think sometime...

Bruce Cannady: I donít know how it went in the other part of the system,

whether Billís did the same, but Bill, God, he told me later, he said, ìBoy

you just went for this hand over, just wanted it badly.î He said, ìHere I

thought maybe people would be against this, and you werenít.î ìWell,î I

said, ìno, anybody in their right mind would go for this kind of a program.

Itís going to cost some money,î and I said, ìBill,î I said, ìdonít worry about

it,î and we didnít.

Cannady 34

Jerry Grover: This was the professionalization of the Fish Hatchery

program, bringing in the college graduates.

Bruce Cannady: Iím sure today it really paid off.

Jerry Grover: You didnít lie to these guys, did you?

Bruce Cannady: No.

Jerry Grover: To get them on board? See, I was told, I was working as a

Fisheries Management Biologist in California doing fisheries management

things. Fish hatcheries were kind of like a low life. They were the ones

that would shoot a doe deer out of season, you know, and probably would

keep an undersized fish if they caught it and hide it. I was hired back in

Region 5. I was told I was, you were going to be a Fisheries Manager

Biologist in this poor, backward state of West By God Virginia, you know,

the land of John L. Lewis and the coal miners, and the unions and screwed

up the habitat, and they needed biologists back there, but youíll be

stationed at a hatchery in White Sulphur Springs. I go back there, and

guess what my first job was?

Bruce Cannady: Probably...

Jerry Grover: I was sweeping fish shit out of the ponds.

Bruce Cannady: That wasnít always fun.

Jerry Grover: Then I got into high tech grass cutting.

Pauline Cannady: When Bruce was at Cortland, New York, they tried to

talk him into staying there and taking over the .

Bruce Cannady: Art Phillips wanted me to stay there.

Pauline Cannady: And boy, I tell you, that weather.

Bruce Cannady: John Maxwell was already going to go, they already had

made up their mind that John was going to go to the office in Boston,

and he wanted me to stay. Well, it was the same job that a couple years

later that Ray Vaughan had.

Jerry Grover: In Boston?

Cannady 35

Bruce Cannady: No, in...

Pauline Cannady: Cortland.

Jerry Grover: In Cortland?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah.

Jerry Grover: Okay, I didnít remember Ray being at Cortland. I remember

him being at Lamar.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, he was at Cortland before he went to Lamar.

Anyway, I said, ìI donít want to do that.î I said, ìIím a westerner and Iíve

been here a year, and Iíve enjoyed every minute of it, but Iíd like to go

home.î I said, ìI just feel like a long way from home.î So he let me go

home, but I, you know, Art, I donít know how many times I think he had

dinner with us in Portland here, a couple of three times. Well, what else?

Jerry Grover: Stories. You talk about  Cook, heís always,

thereís always so many stories told about Cookie. Are any of those true,

you suppose? About the one, I can remember one about a...

Bruce Cannady: Did you ever read, did you ever happen to read one of

his letters?

Jerry Grover: Yes, one that...

Jerry Grover: They should have framed those things. He would write.

Donít know whether I ever, Iím sure I told you. Heíd write epistles.

Bruce Cannady: Heíd start in and heíd write, and about the time that heíd

sign the goddamn thing heíd have an afterthought, so heíd write it up on

the side, and then heíd have another one and heíd write it on the side,

write it along the bottom. Heíd turn it over and God, heíd have these

addendums would just go on and on and on, and most of, I donít know

why he even bothered about writing, and I donít know what he ever, you

know, in the office. Heíd have the people all doing this and that, and he

would be out feeding the fish. He loved to feed the fish. He was a

manager, so he got to feed the fish.

Jerry Grover: The fun part. On the letters again, I understand everything.

Iíve heard that same story about Cook writing the letters in big long

epistles. Heíd write on the back side, heíd add a second page and then

heíd say, ìOh heck,

Cannady 36

forget the whole thing, Iíve changed my mind.î Heíd sign it and send it in.

Did you ever...

Bruce Cannady: I tell you, he was a classic.

Jerry Grover: He was also the guy, I heard the story [about] looking over

the surplus list. There was this drilling machine in Seattle and he said,

ìGod that would be just what they needed in the shop,î and so he puts in

a request and gets it shipped there, and the guy from, from the train

station down there said he had a delivery, and he said, ìIíll be right down

and pick it up.î He said, ìWhat do you mean, itís on two flat cars.î Well,

this drilling machine was something for 16 inch guns that came out of the

Naval base, and then Cookie had to pay to send that darn thing back,

which was a bunch of money.

Bruce Cannady: I forgot all about that story.

Jerry Grover: Do you remember that story?

Bruce Cannady: I remember the story, but I had forgotten all about it,

but thatís exactly, he was going to get this little thing and wound up he

had two flat cars. Hellís fire, he had to get a drag line to move anything

like that, but that, that was Cookie. He, oh boy, and I tell you, Iíll tell one

story about him. I generally would like to stay in a hotel, but this time,

particular time when I said Iím coming, why old Cookie says, ìWell, be sure

and stay with us,î and I started to hesitate and he said, ìNo, Iím not taking

no. Youíve got to stay with us.î So I said, ìAll right.î So I spent the night

with him. Iím trying to think what her name is, I canít think, but anyway,

then I said something later about it and they said, ìOh Jesus, sheís the

best cook in the world.î I got it. Oh boy, was she a cook.

Jerry Grover: Well there were some characters in the Fish and Wildlife

Service up and down the river, and thereís some hard drinking, hard poker

playing.

Bruce Cannady: You knew, I think you did, Bob .

Jerry Grover:  yes.

Bruce Cannady: His wife, his wife...

Jerry Grover: Yeah, he was the one, he was at Carson for a while too, and

he retired.

Cannady 37

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, yeah.

Jerry Grover: Kind of been known for drinking.

Bruce Cannady: Well, she lives over here at the coast at...

Jerry Grover: Long Beach, isnít it?

Pauline Cannady: Montezuma. No not Montezuma.

Bruce Cannady: Manzanita.

Pauline Cannady: Manzanita.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, we get a Christmas, thereís a number of these

people we get a Christmas card every year from these people.

Pauline Cannady: Our son and their son, Robert, were very good friends.

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, egad dad. Those two kids, and thatís been a long,

long time ago, almost 50, but anyway, they stayed, they put a, stayed in

a camp down at , and we went, weíd go down every day to be

sure everything was all right because Iíd think, what were they about 15,

13, something like that, and all they would ever say is, ìWell, what do you

think?î ìEgad Dad, Iím fine.î That was all they would talk about, egad Dad.

I donít know where they ever picked that up. I asked him once, I said, ìDo

you remember that?î ìVaguely.î

Pauline Cannady: Oh, yes.

Jerry Grover: What about other old characters on the river here in the

system? John Conner was one. Heís kind of, I donít know whether thereís

any stories...

Bruce Cannady: John and I had a falling out and Iíve always regretted it,

and itís one of those things that I just had a brainstorm that I should

have, something else. John and I...

Pauline Cannady: We loved his wife, Ellen, you know.

Bruce Cannady: John and I had been very good friends ever since I knew

him, almost except for the very last before he retired. When I left Battle

Creek and went up to Coleman, John and I, John didnít want me to come

up there at all. He later changed his mind and in fact, I found out later

that of all the people that did

Cannady 38

not recommend anybody to be promoted, John, I was one of the very few

that John didnít. He thought that was all right. When I first got up there,

Iíd only worked there about two weeks. It was spring and we began to

change things around, and I had to get a crew out here to work, clean and

whatever they were doing, and I sent them out. Weíd had some bad

weather, and we hadnít done anything for a couple, three days. Well all at

once this morning we have nice weather, so I sent them out there, and

then I walked up to the hatchery and ran into John, and John began to

give me hell because these people were not working and they were

supposed to be out working, and by God, ìwhat are you doingî, blah, blah,

blah. John really, he could do this and I waited until he ran down, and

then I really told him off. He had made me mad, so I made him mad right

back because I pointed, I said, ìThere are four men out there working right

now and doing what Iíve already told them. Now what are you talking

about?î Blah, blah, and he turned around and he apologized, and we, I had

already been told for years that John, if heíd ever get on top of you heíd

just beat you right into the ground, and Iíd made up my mind that was

never going to happen to me if I had to leave town. So I waited for him

when I got this time, and then I took care of him. Well anyway, it went on

until after he retired, and I get this notice that instead of, he had a home

down in Red Bluff, but he was staying there, and that was against that

particular rule at the time. Now as it happened, not long after that, the

thing come up with Benny Cox and I did what I should have done the first

time, and I didnít. I told Benny, I called him and told him, I said, ìYouíre

not supposed to do this.î ìWell,î he said, ìIím kind of in...î

Pauline Cannady: Bind.

Bruce Cannady: ì..in a bindî, and I said, ìJust leave it alone.î So I went to

the Chief Administrator and...

Jerry Grover: Weíre dealing here, weíre talking about required occupancy

of hatchery housing by the manager and .

Bruce Cannady: So I got an okay and we handled it all verbally, and he

was gone in a couple of weeks and everything was taken care of. But

when Johnís case, instead of me doing what I should have done the

second time, I said, ìwhat am Iî, ìwhat am I going to doî, words like this.

So for some reason, Tuddle was gone, and I wrote a letter and had the

Regional sign it, Regional Director sign it. John Finnely got it. He sent it

back. He said, ìOh.î I said,îItís the rule. What are we going to do about

it?î He said, ìWell I donít know, but,î he said, ìitís kind of your problem.î

He said, ìIf you want to write a letter, go ahead.î That was a mistake.

That was my, his first mistake, and mine was listening to him because I

went ahead and I wrote the letter and I signed it as Acting Regional

Supervisor,

Cannady 39

and John never forgave me.

Jerry Grover: Basically you told him to move back on the hatchery or

move out, retire.

Bruce Cannady: Something like that.

Jerry Grover: Okay.

Bruce Cannady: And instead, he compounded it. What he should have

done was given me a ring and said, ìJesus, Iím in a trouble,î and we would

have worked it out, and I would have taken the second route and got him

out of it. Instead, the last time I saw John he was still mad. I run into him

in Red Bluff at something or other and he made some remark, and I said,

ìJohn, Iím sorry,î because at the time it was just one of those things

probably shouldnít have happened, but it did, but he never forgave me.

Jerry Grover: John, what I remember of John Pelner, at least in his later

years, that he always smoked these roll your own cigarettes, and he

always set back, and he didnít, and there was always little sparks. He

didnít have a shirt that didnít look like it had been shot with a shot gun. I

mean, just full of little holes.

Bruce Cannady: That was John.

Jerry Grover: Do you remember that?

Bruce Cannady: Yeah, oh yes. John was, I tell you, I loved John. I liked

him, and we got along fine, and I always regretted that last damn incident

that, I didnít have any idea that he would react like he would, that he

would do something or other, maybe call or whatever, and I look back, I

think, Jesus, I should have called him first, you know. I could have called

him and said, ìLook, youíre in trouble on...î

Jerry Grover: Youíre causing me, youíre causing me a lot of trouble.

Bruce Cannady:  or do, weíve got to work something out here.

Well, heíd have probably popped off and so forth or we would have

worked it out. I just did it wrong, but thatís...

Jerry Grover: Another character. Heís the first and...

Bruce Cannady: Most people did not like him, oh boy, they...