Frank W. Sharp oral history transcript

              Interview with Frank W. Sharp, Angoon, talking about the Hood Bay Cannery with C. M.

Mobley, 04/16/99 Tape 1

SIDE 1

-- 1, 2, 3, 4 …

-- (Indecipherable)

Chuck Mobley -- Ok, we’re on the air. … Um... this is Chuck Mobley, and the date is

April... what…

Frank Sharp – 16.

CM -- 16, 1999. And I’m sitting here in the house of Frank Sharp in Angoon … and

Gabriel George. And just so that folks that listen to this know who is who, from the right

track to the left track, you are …

FS -- Frank Sharp.

CM -- And you are ….

Gabriel George -- Gabriel George.

CM -- Ok. And this project has to do with... um... historical study, archeological study,

of the Hood Bay Cannery that I’m doing for Klinkititus. And Mr. Sharp has agreed to

talk about the Hood Bay Cannery and his experiences there, because he spent some time

there. So if I could go from that to -- why did you ever end up at Hood Bay, Mr. Sharp,..

Frank ... what ... what was your first experience there? You had folks there?

FS -- My first experience would be that my ... ah ... grandmother and her

husband lived in Hood Bay. So we used to go up there and visit my

grandmother.

CM -- Where did they live?

FS -- Let’s see. How can I explain? You were up there so, ... It’d be

about halfway between the saltery, that Gabe was just talking about, and

the cannery.

GG -- Lock 28.

CM -- So you lived in Lock 28?

FS -- My grandmother did.

CM -- Your grandmother did.

FS -- Yeah.

CM – When ... was this a traditional location or did they …

FS -- No. At that... No. They... they... they... they used to known ...

Hood Bay used to have a lot of ... ah ... Norwegians up there. It was a

little small community, you know. They lived separately. It wasn’t a

town but they ... they had places around there. And my grandmother, at

that time, was married to another man. His name was Jack Lee. And

they had ... they had that place there.

CM -- Your mother or your grandmother?

FS -- My grandmother.

CM -- And what was your grandmother’s name?

FS -- Originally, she was ... ah ... from here, she was ... ah ... Mary

Nelson. And at that time she was Mary Lee, ‘cause she’d married this

Jack Lee. “Course she’d been Sharp also because she was married to my

grandfather ... first, and then they got divorced and she married this

Jack Lee.

CM -- So, about what time do you suppose they moved there? Was there a building there

when they ..?

FS -- Oh, yeah ... yeah ... The building still exists. It’s not there. They

towed it and it’s here at the ... by the boat harbor now ... her original

house.

CM -- Which house at the boat harbor?

FS -- It’s the one over on the point. That nice spot, belongs to the

Johnson’s.

GG -- Oh.

FS -- Yeah that was my grandmother’s house. They towed it over from

the ... from Hood Bay.

CM -- But before that, there was still a house there that they … So, they didn’t build that

house?

FS -- Yeah. They built the house in Hood Bay.

CM -- Oh, ok.

FS -- Lived there. And when they got through, and you know, died, left,

or whatever, then ... they ... ah... someone bought the property. I don’t

even know how they bought it. But then they sold the house, and the

towed it over here to Angoon.

CM -- So about what year did they build the house?

FS -- It would have been about 1939, probably some… ‘37, ‘38, ’39, right

in there, when it was built. And they lived there I know in the ‘40s. And

they, you know, there were other Norwegian people living around there.

CM -- So what are your earliest memories of …? First … I’m sorry … how old are you?

FS -- I’m 67.

CM -- Ok. So you were a fairly young kid then.

FS -- Um hum.

CM -- When you first…

FS -- Yeah.

CM -- What are your earliest memories of the area?

FS -- The cannery always seemed the same to me. You know the area

there, like I say, there was some people around there, few in those days,

when I was there… But ... ah ... you know, it’s like all the southeast (---)

it was ... ah ... wild and beautiful. And full of resources. So the cannery

was there, I think the cannery goes back in my mind, you know, before

my time, it was about 192-- … as I remember it was about 1928 or

somewhere, they put the cannery up there. I’m just guessing at that.

But ... and then ... ah ... you know people worked in the canneries in the

... in the summertime. It was a big thing to go to the cannery and work

so … They did a lot of things. They lived in Hood Bay but, you know,

they logged, they fished, they trapped, you know,… They did ... that’s

the way Alaska used to be. You didn’t ... I always say you didn’t live up

here for a job. It was the lifestyle that you lived here for. And the

resources were so abundant and everything that ... ah ... you know, you

could basically live off the land. You had to have a little money for winter

supplies – flour, sugar, rice, you know, the things ... the main things.

But for the rest you lived off the land. And that’s basically what people

did up there. They spent the winter there and then did things in the

summer. Logged, whatever came around.

CM -- So … did your folks work for the cannery? Or your grandparents work for the

cannery?

FS -- My grandmother worked in the cannery. It seemed that he ... ah ...

he ... he was more, I think, involved more in logging. Or maybe getting

logs for the traps and things like that. They had to have ah ... they had

to have trap logs. We had floating fish traps in those days. And ... ah ...

you had to get the ... they were huge logs. They had to get the logs to ...

ah ... build the fish traps. I think he was more involved in that than in

the cannery process.

CM -- What kind of logs? Hemlock?

FS -- Nah, big spruce.

CM -- Spruce.

FS -- Uh huh. You know, the ones that are 6 – 7 foot through ... through

the butt, and straight, you know. They built these huge fish traps. And

cabled them together ... using ... ah ... power winch ... steam powered

winch. They’d wrap these cables around and tie this ... the logs together

to make a floating fish trap.

CM -- Do you remember any of the fish traps that were…used?

FS -- Oh. Yeah. I worked ... I worked on the fish traps myself in later

years, you know. I was on the trap gang with a … with a crew up there.

That was always ... see when you were here ... we lived in Angoon at the

time, but we went to the cannery. That was to get on early. Usually a

cannery didn’t start ‘till about July, see, you know, the actual canning.

But we got to go up in April, because … there’s always a lot of repair,

after the cannery has been laid up all winter ... ah ... repairing the

boardwalks, you know, doing things around the cannery. Putting in the

water line. They had about a ... what was that it ... must have been

about ... a mile long water line there, because they went clear up to the

head there, and then up ... up that crick, you know, up the north arm.

And you ... it was a wood pipe so … And it was built on stilts in a lot of

places. And you had to replace the ah …

CM -- … these kind of …

FS -- Yeah ... ah ... Yeah. You use natural stuff that you had around.

But you had ... always had to do some repair on the pipeline to bring the

water to the cannery, ‘cause the cannery uses a lot of water, you know,

for ... in the process of canning.

CM -- The dam where that water comes from …

FS -- Um hum.

CM -- … how big a dam is that?

FS -- It was just small. It went actually ... went up the crick. It wasn’t a

dam. It was just ah ... the crick ran there and they got kind of a, you

know, they put a few rocks and things ‘round, but the crick just flowed

so heavily there. And then it went into this ... ah ... wooden pipe ... down

….

CM --How high?

FS -- The pipe? Oh, it was quite a ways up there. It was probably ... half

a mile or three quarters of a mile up the crick. You know, it went along

the edge of the beach and then went up the ... ah ... the ravine there, the

gorge…

CM -- Now, I saw chunks of that, that come along the east side of the point.

FS -- Um hum.

CM -- And that used to be ... there are still some cross pieces?

FS -- Yeah that’s ... that’s what would hold the thing up.

CM – Ok. So, where did ... when it came across the point, it looks like that waterline

split a couple times it, it forked, is that…is that the case?

FS -- The main one wouldn’t. No. It would go directly to the cannery.

And those houses there where the people lived, didn’t have water. You

used ‘goon water ... buckets, you know, ... ’Goon water is ... Tlingits

called it ... you saw it there on the beach, I’m sure its still there, the pipe

is and there is water coming out of the ground, right at a low level, and

the water runs there the whole time. So, that’s what the ... the people on

the ... on that side of the cannery used, was the ‘goon water.

CM -- Now that 8 inch line that comes down there on that east side…

FS -- Yeah.

CM -- …along the beach…

FS -- Yeah.

CM -- …east side of the point it’s ... it’s only a few feet above the sea level.

FS -- Yeah. It was right along the edge of the woods on the beach.

CM -- So when ... when it crossed, where did it cross the point? Did it cross the point at

..?

FS -- It was back in. You know how the point goes in …

CM -- Yeah.

FS -- Well, where you were staying in the cabin, it came behind ... right

back in that area there.

CM – And did it ... when it came to the cannery, did it have to go uphill any to get to …to

be used?

FS -- No. No. Not as I remember. It was ... it was kind of level along,

you know, clear over to the cannery buildings there.

CM -- So, they didn’t have to push it uphill or anything?

FS -- No. Not that I know of. Of course they could have, you know,

because the source was so high. So, water seeks its own level. And it

would have reached whatever level that was. But basically it was pretty

... ah ... it was pretty level, as it went along.

CM -- Ok. So what was that water used for then?

FS -- That’s the processing in the cannery, you know, to wash the fish,

and whatever. It takes a lot of water. You got to go through the ‘iron

chink’ and the ‘slimers’ and all this sort of ... people who clean the fish

and everything. You have to wash the fish as it goes through. So ..ah ...

it was the fresh water, so, you know, whatever was ... they needed to do

there in the cannery. Probably ... ah ... if they had steam boilers, you

know, they had the big steam boiler for the cookers and everything, and

so … that’s where they got the water to … and then they … the boilers

were oil fired, but then you have to make steam so you have to have ...

you have to have water.

CM -- So that supplied the steam boiler?

FS -- Yeah. That was all the water supply for the cannery.

CM -- Well, now, there is another little dam right straight up behind …

FS -- Yeah, I’ve seen it.

CM -- … behind the ... the cannery building…

FS -- Yeah.

CM -- … right straight up, and there’s an 8 inch pipe that comes out of that.

FS -- Um hum.

CM -- There’s about … the dam probably was about 6 or 8 feet high.

FS -- Yeah I remember.

CM -- … wood berm …

FS – Yeah.

CM -- What was that for?

FS -- That was probably a spare, you know, for … for the boiler. Because

the boiler sat right there. You know where the … where the

superintendents house was?

CM – Yeah.

FS -- Your talking about the just to the right of that looking at it. Yeah.

I remember it being there. I don’t ever remember it being any main ... for

any main, you know, source. Because it wouldn’t be that much water

there, you know what I mean. It would have to be just more of a surface

… kind of a surface water there. Because nothing hit the beach there.

You know there wasn’t any water that come down to the beach. So it

wouldn’t be a running, running source.

CM -- What ... what buildings had running water then, for like sinks and toilets and that

sort of thing?

FS -- Well, we didn’t … Shall I put this on the table?

-- Go ahead. (don’t know who is speaking)

-- overlapping voices / indecipherable conversation

FS -- No. Actually you had ... you had classes, you know. You had a

class of workers. So you had it in the cook house, and you know the

cook house would be ... would be ... oh ... just to the right of where the

boilers are sitting on the beach now. You know where the boilers have

fallen down, right, that was the, you know, where they did the cooking.

Just to the right a little would be the cook house. And it’s in those

pictures. You know, it’s in some of the pictures. The cook house had

water, you know. It had ... but the village ... anywhere to the ... what you

call the east, I actually think of it as the north, ‘cause that’s ...

– North Arm … (don’t know who is speaking)

FS -- …the arm up there is known as the North Arm. And it is ... it is the

east (--), but I can’t ... in my mind it’s north. So anyway, the people on

that side carried their water and burnt coal and ... ah ... had outhouses.

The people who lived in those newer houses, and they were built later on,

the ones toward Angoon here, you know, on the west side, that was the

boat owners. The people who had the boats and everything. And they

had running water, burnt oil, and ... ah ... you know lived just a little

nicer. They weren’t fancy or anything. But they were just little better.

So they lived on that side and then ... ah ... the regular workers lived on

the other side.

CM -- So the ... none of the buildings to the east then had running water?

FS -- No. No, uh huh – outhouses.

CM -- Did the outhouses go into the ground or did they flush into the tide?

FS -- Went right down in a hole. You know, they’d just dig a hole that

went down into the ground.

CM -- So they didn’t flush them out into the bay?

FS -- No. You know it was ... that’s where it would seep, ‘cause we were

right along the edge of the shore anyway. The tide actually came up

underneath the boardwalk. There’d be ... there were houses on both

sides, you see going toward the east, there were houses against the bank,

and then houses on the outside. And then there was the boardwalk that

ran down so you could go… People on that side. People on this side. All

the way along.

CM – But the outhouses actually went into a hole in the ground?

FS -- Yeah. They did. The outhouses weren’t all out on the out … they

were up toward the bank side. Every so far along there’d be an

outhouse.

CM -- Not very far into the woods though, huh?

FS -- No. Right there. Right along ... same level as the houses. You

know the houses were just little shacks, and they would go around, and

there would be just a toilet right there, outhouse right there. And go

along houses, and there’d be an outhouse there.

CM -- Where did the coal come from?

FS -- They brought it in on Alaska Steam.

CM -- So it was commercial stuff? It didn’t come from canal through ..?

FS -- No. Nuh-uh. The steam ship came in regularly, you know.

Beginning of the season, all during the season, and then take the salmon

home to Seattle in ... ah ... in the fall.

CM -- Did ... did the coal come in sacks or did they have ..?

FS -- Sacks.

CM -- … bunker or anything?

FS – Came in sacks.

CM -- So, it was always in small containers?

FS -- Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, sacks.

CM -- They never stored it any place in particular?

FS -- No. One of the big jobs was longshoreing, and a lot of guys ... you

got extra pay for going on along loading Alaska Steam.

CM -- What kind of stoves did you burn the coal in?

FS -- They were just regular ... they had flat tops on them ... and they

were wood and coal, I guess, ‘cause you could burn both. We had better,

we had coal. So they must have been, you know, if you burn out a stove

pretty fast with coal ‘cause it burns a lot hotter than wood. Ah ... they

might have been that grade. They weren’t anything fancy, you know. It

wasn’t ... you were working ... sometimes you’d work ... there were so

many fish in those days, some days ... sometimes you’d work right

around the clock. Just keep going and going and going and going with

hardly any break at all, ‘cause salmon was always ... you had to get it

right away, because it wasn’t frozen or chilled or anything else. It’d come

boatloads, you know, boatloads so you had to keep processing or

otherwise you’d have a spoiled product.

CM -- What was the pay scales?

FS -- All I can remember is, that my first year that my wife and I both

worked there, we made 700 dollars for the summer.

CM -- Both of you?

FS -- Yeah. I probably ... I thought we had ... I looked through my

things. I thought we had some of my, you know, salary things.

CM -- Your pay …

FS -- I’m quite a guy on keeping old things, but ... ah ... it wasn’t very ...

it wasn’t very much. I remember when I went on the trap gang, and my

dad had already been on the trap gang, so he was always ... he lived right

along side of me, right here, he had his original, … this is a new house.

But he was right there, and he was always, you know, bragging about

how much money he made. And he made 630 dollars a month on the

trap gang.

(heavy static)

CM -- Ok. Sound good. Still testing, testing.

FS -- 1, 2, 3 …

CM -- Still sounds good. Ok. Um ... tell me about the traps now. Where were they

located? I understood that there were about 3 or 5?

FS -- Well, they had more. Originally I think they had 11. They had ...

they had 11. But when we came in there was already a big push in ...

Alaska became a state primarily because of fish traps. They wanted to

outlaw the fish traps. And you know, there was … the ... owned by

individuals. They became multi-millionaires. They controlled the fish

and all this sort of thing. So, there was a big thing about fish traps. And

what was the question again?

CM -- Where ... where were they?

FS -- We had ... Eagle Island was one we had. And we had False Point

Caution. And the other one they put over by Basket Bay. That’s when

we had three.

CM -- And those were stationary or..?

FS -- Yeah. They were ... they were there ... before the summer you used

big five ton star anchors. You’d anchored them out. It took about five

anchors to each trap. And ‘course, you know how a trap works. It had a

lead from the shore, it was a wire fence, technically. And it was about

800 feet long, from the beach out, to the floating trap. And then this

complex thing of the fish always follow things, so they’d follow this lead.

They’d come along, hit the fence, follow along the fence, go into different

phases of the trap which continually lead them out to the spillers. And

that … fish just do that. They ... they’ll follow. And they’ll go in, and

you’ll make a … a wall inside, of logs and wire. And we always had wire.

Each one of the sections had wire ... fence, like a fence. No bottom until

you got out to the ... to the spillers, it had a bottom in it. But they just

follow along these things. And they’ll actually just ... they’ll hit this wall,

bounce off that wall, hit that wall, bounce off this wall. Keep bouncing

around. There is always an entry way for them to go into the next

section. Then they ... finally they’ll lead through there and then they

bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce. And finally they go into the final ...

thing. Where the wire there, that wire -- actually it was web, could be

lifted up. You could crank it up. Lift it all up and dip it onboard the

tenders that came out to pick up the fish.

CM -- How many fish would you get?

FS -- I remember seeing on the walls ... These traps had been used, you

know, clear back ... I’d say like 1928, 1924, whenever it was. And I can

remember seeing on the wall ... they had trap watchmen who stayed on

these traps all summer. Usually alone. They’d usually be alone. But

anyway … they’d write down their years thing, I can remember seeing ...

ah ... 450,000 salmon one trap … 300,000 … And then as the years went

by and we got up into the ‘50s there, it was actually down like 30 –

50,000. You could see the salmon decline, you know, by reading the

numbers on the wall.

CM -- What kind of salmon? Everything?

FS -- Yeah. It was a ... it was mixed salmon. Everything. ‘Course, you

know, pinks are the major runs. And then dogs, I guess, would be right

in there. And in fact, sometimes dogs, I think, used to outnumber ...

outnumber pinks. It’s not that way anymore. Pinks out number dogs.

But places like Tenakee Inlet and ... ah ... ah ... Port Hoonah ... what’s it

called -- Port Ault ... No. What’s the Hoonah Bay? They used to catch

800,000 dogs a year. That was the chums. And for some reason, in my

estimation anyway, I was in ... also in Fish and Game for 20 years. So,

the dogs have basically disappeared, other than the hatchery ones. And

the pinks have increased.

CM -- How did they drive the pilings? Did you ever work on a pile driver or anything?

FS -- I ... I ... No. I never worked ... This thing that I worked on though,

this rigging scow, also had a pile driving unit on it. And it had a big

steam boiler, you know, for power. So it could drive anything. That’s

also what you wrapped the cables with on the traps, you know. It had to

be a good tight wrap. And they would drive piling with it. Basically it ...

driving a pile ... you’ve got a big sledge hammer up on a ... on a frame,

and you have a way to take the piling up underneath this sledge

hammer. And you just keep raising and lowering the sledge hammer and

drive it down into the surface.

CM -- Now, I understood also they used nets of some sort for the traps. Did they use nets

or was it just all wire?

FS -- It was all wire.

CM -- So when we have net gear at the cannery, that’s all for the seine?

FS -- That’s all seine. Or I told you, there was web in the first ... in the

last part of the … ah ... fish trap. The two spillers. They used web

‘cause they had to raise it up and drop it down, and raise it up and drop

it down, all the time. We used lots and lots of wire. Every spring that’s

what we had to go ... had to go make up all the wire new, because, when

you finish the season, the trap was through fishing and your going to

bring it back home again, ah ... you cut the wire loose. You just went

and cut it. It was all hog ringed, you know, all along. And when you

wanted to go take the trap back, they just went and cut the wire loose

and dropped it to the bottom. Now, like I say, just the lead was 800 feet

long. So you can imagine how much wire there is just hanging on the

lead.

(heavy static)

CM -- Testing

FS -- 1, 2, 3,…

CM -- Ok. Testing. I’m going to come over and sit so you can hear me. Testing, testing,

testing, testing, testing, testing, testing, testing. Ok. I can hear myself now. Oh ... and

were on the air. Ok. So we just unplugged one of the mikes, ‘cause it had static on it.

The ... um ... the boats that you brought the fish back in…?

FS -- Um-hum.

CM -- Do you remember what they ... what kind of boats they were? What there ... any of

the names of them? Who piloted them?

FS -- Boy, if I thought for ... for a while I could, but ah …

CM -- How big were they?

FS -- Well, they were like 80 footers. And there was one that we used,

you know, one main one. I wish I could think of the name right now.

Every year, you know, what I mean. So we only had ... we only had the

one. We only had the one. Hood Bay just had the one tender. You

know, the ... the one that went out to the fish traps and did everything.

And it almost popped in my mind as I was ... as I was talking. But I’m

afraid that I’d have to think about that for a while.

CM -- So what did they use scows for? There’s a scow …

FS -- Yeah. That’s what they ... they used also. They didn’t put the fish

on the ... on the tender unless there was too many fish. They took fish

scows with them. That’s what they were. Wooden scows. Had a four or

five foot bins, ah ... bin boards on the side, you know. So they could seal

off the fish in the thing. And then put them on the scows. You know,

they’d hold ... there ... isn’t there still one sitting on the beach there.

There was. Right by your camp. Like that. You know, it’s like ... last I

knew it was up on ...

(GG?) -- Right.

FS -- ... kind of like a grid there.

(GG?) -- Right.

FS -- Yeah. That ... they had several of those. And then ... then they put

the fish in there. ‘GERRY’ ... the name of the boat was the ‘GERRY.’

CM -- All right.

FS -- Yeah. It just hit me. Yeah. And it was like, 80 feet. Looked a lot

like what I would consider now like a tug boat.

CM -- Uh-hum. How many people did the cannery employee when it was going full tilt?

FS -- Albert Thompson was the Superintendent of the cannery for 25

years. His wife is still alive, by the way. She’s down in (-246-). She’s 90

some years old.

(GG?) -- Is that right?

FS -- Yeah. And she’s still alive. He married a (-247-) lady and …

CM -- Albert Thompson?

FS -- Yeah. But, anyway, what he use to say … He was a really close

with my family, especially my uncle Jim Sharp, and he used to say that -

- sorry about this Gabe -- but he used to say if he didn’t have to hire the

whole village, he could make some money.

CM -- And who was Albert Thompson?

FS -- He was the superintendent for 25 years of Hood Bay Salmon

Company.

CM -- What was he like?

FS -- He was of Norwegian stock. Kind of a short, stocky, serious ...

That’s the way I looked at him. Kind of a business man, you know. He

was ... he was ... ah ... he had slight Norwegian accent ... slight

Norwegian accent. And ... ah ... he lived in Seattle, you know, and when

the season was on, they had ... they had … company headquarters was

down in Seattle. And then he’d come up, you know, and run the

cannery. And, of course, handled all the business -- selling the fish ...

the cans and everything, you know, in the off season.

CM -- What’s his wife’s name?

FS -- Margaret, Margaret Thompson. She lives ... I just heard the other

day ... My wife was in the hospital and I heard that ... ah ... Margaret

Thompson was still alive. And she’s ... they say she’s blind, but she’s

pretty … she’s sharp minded, yet. Still.

CM -- Can you describe to me the canning process. They got sheet met… they got the

metal in to make the cans and all that.

FS -- Yeah. They got the form, you know, they ... they ... they didn’t have

ends in them. They got cases and cases, you know. But they usually …

when I was there, they canned about 20,000 cases a season. And I think

there was 48 cans to a case. So you take about 20,000 cases. And they

... they ... the cans came empty in boxes, you know. And it was just the

... the can, no lids, or bottoms even. And then they had the machinery

that did all that. When they’d bring it all out, they’d run it through and

it’d put the sealer, you know. It took the top, I mean the bottom, and

then they put the fish in it. And then it’d go through another machine

and ... and ... ah ... seal it. And then it went back into the retort ... what

they call the retorts ... went through it. A line, you know, they call it a

line. It starts at one end and the fish comes in whole, they’ve got

everything on them yet, and ... ah ... Prior to my time, they had to all do

it hand. Take the heads off. Gut them. Take the blood out of the center.

You know. Slime them. Everything was done. But by the time I got

around, they already had what they call ... now-a-days it would be

discriminatory, they had the ‘iron chink.’ ‘Cause they use to use Chinese

to do this work, see. So, the ‘iron chink’ would do this all automatically.

Grab ahold of the fish, slit it, take the stuff out. All this. It still had to

be slimed by hand. So when it went through there, then there were

women on each side ... water running profusely, in this thing ... shooting

out. And the women then would what they call ‘slime’ it. You know,

they would have knives and take the slime off the outside. Clean it up,

type of thing. And then go through, and it would be chopped up. And

then they’d go through another line where women are on both sides.

Usually always women in the … There were a few men, but the men did

more like the retorts, you know, the heavy work where your pulling the

trays, putting them into the retort, and that thing. But along the

cannery line was almost all women. And then when it got into chunks

they’d take it by hand and fill the cans. And if a can, you know, wasn’t

full or it had something, you know, they’d pick out pieces, you know, just

like you do in any other cannery. So that your getting a good product

there. And went through and then it finally go through and put the lids

on them. And then come and shoot out … And it was real fast. It just

click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, you know.

Just moving along there ... all the time.

CM -- How many lines were there?

FS -- Some canneries were, you know, more than one line. I think Hood

Bay, as I remember, had two lines. But lot of times it would only operate

... unless it was, you know, really busy, then it would run both lines.

CM -- So the number of retorts doesn’t have anything to do with how many lines there

are necessarily?

FS -- Well, you have to have enough retorts to handle the product that’s

coming out, you know. They would be ... they would go into trays when

they were finally sealed and everything. They would come back. And the

trays were about ... you probably saw them laying there.

CM -- Lots of them.

FS -- Yeah, lots of them laying around there. So they’d come in …

there’s probably in a tray, and I should know, I worked back there long

enough, and I used to know all that stuff,… Gee, there’d probably be

300, 400 cans in a tray. And then they’d ... they had these carts that

they put them, you know, three wheeled carts, hand carts that they’d put

them on. A tray would go down. Then the next tray. And you’d put that

on top of that. And another tray on top of that. And there’d probably be,

you know, they’d be ... I don’t know how many trays there’d be ... they

worked it … one, two, three, four, … there’d be ... 40 trays to a ... before

you’d put them in the retorts. And they had like railroad track. You go

in and set ... run it back in and set it down on these things. You could

probably put in a retort ... you’d probably put ... ah … 15 ... of these

piles. You know, of the trays in groups, like I said. I’m not explaining it

very well. But it would hold a lot. It would hold a lot, ‘cause they were

what, 20 feet long maybe. So you could get a lot of fish in one.

CM -- Now after they’d been pressure cooked …

FS -- Um-hum.

CM -- …in there, then what happens?

FS -- Then we brought them out. Soon as they had the time, you know,

they’re cooked under great pressure, like you said, and heat. You bring

them out, and then jitney ‘em over,.. We had ... we had ... at that time we

did have a jitney, I was also a jitney driver there. And drive over and put

them in the warehouse. You had a cannery house, and a warehouse,

over on the other side. Just a short separate ... maybe 12 feet between

the two. You’d run them. Let them cool. They’d sit there and cool down.

And then from the cooling actually, then they had people who went in

and ... ah ... cased them. Put them in ... put them in the cases.

CM -- Well, in between that, they’d put labels on them, right?

FS -- No. We didn’t put our own labels on ours. They went down south

and a lot of the canneries were that way. They tell me milks the same

thing. Whoever bought it put their label on it.

CM -- Do you know any of the labels that went on the Hood Bay Cannery fish?

FS -- Yeah. There was a real popular one, I remember. “Packed with

the wiggle in the tail.” I can remember, that’s what it said on it. “Packed

with the wiggle in the tail.” I can’t remember the main brand. I used to

save those labels, too. It was a funny thing. They used to have them

laying around at all the canneries, you know. And I’d pick them up.

Now I don’t have a one. I think I gave them away to everybody. No. We

... we didn’t label them though. We didn’t … After they came out, they’d

take these trays then and then there would be ... usually ladies and kids

... young ... younger people in the warehouse, ‘cause they couldn’t work

around the dangerous equipment, you know. The kids couldn’t. So they

... they had, you know, probably 16 years old … somewhere around

there. And then they would be the people who put them in the ... in the

cases.

CM -- So people started working there about when they were 16 or so?

FS -- Um ... yeah. I’d say a little younger, like 15. 14, 15 -- especially in

the warehouse, you know, in the warehouse.

CM -- What different ethnic groups worked ...?

FS -- There were always Filipinos, you know. There were always

Filipinos.

CM -- Where did they live?

FS -- You mean there?

CM -- Yeah.

FS -- They had the Filipino Bunkhouse.

CM -- And that is to the west, is that correct?

FS -- No it was ... it was ... it was also to the east. It was ... ah ... to the

east. They didn’t have ... most canneries had what they call the BIG

Filipino Bunkhouse. And the Filipinos, I can remember, I was also over

at Tenakee at Superior Packing Company, and some of those ... when I

was a young boy, my folks worked over there. They’d bring their pigs up

with them and everything. They’d slaughter pigs. I can remember the

pigs all squealing, you know and everything. And they had the Filipino

Bunkhouse. And in Hood Bay they didn’t have that. They just put them

in regular little ... ah ... cabins. They weren’t all grouped together like

they were at Hawk Inlet and some of those others.

CM -- They brought their families?

FS -- No. I never saw any women. Only the men. And the ... the

maintenance crew, the ... the guys who kept that equipment running,

were all white ... from Seattle. And they belonged ... that was ... the

reason for that was unionism and something. They had ... it was

unionized down ... all the mechanics and all of that ... were white

mechanics from down south.

CM -- Do you happen to know the name of the union? Were you a member?

FS -- International Longshoremen’s and Warehousemen’s Union, I L W

U. My wife was. My wife worked in cannery there and ... ah ... also at

Hawk Inlet.

CM -- What were the Filipinos like?

FS -- I always thought they were really great people. You know, tell you

the truth, I never met a Filipino I didn’t like. You know. You have ...

they had a funny accent and everything, you know. But ... ah ... they

were a lot of fun, you know. They were just a lot ... they were fun to talk

to and everything. A lot of our people married them, you know. We had

quite a few ... mixed … I think one of the most beautiful women there is,

is an Indian and Filipino ... Is all ... they were … Appalard Ardina (or

Abalard Ardinya) ... um ... Raymond S. Meno and ... ah …

GG -- Abono.

FS -- Yeah. He was my boss. Abono was a boss.

GG – [???]

FS -- Yeah. He was … he was a … He was our main boss.

GG -- When did you work there? When did you start workin’?

FS -- At Hood Bay?

GG -- Yeah.

FS -- Hum ... ’50, 19—I’d say around 1950.

CM -- Were you working there when it burnt down?

FS -- No. It was closed then. It had already closed. It burned down in

the winter time. And it had actually closed down because of financial

problems.

CM -- When did it close down? Years before?

FS -- By ... No. No. Just a couple ... few years before. I’d say about

1960, somewhere around there. I think it burned in ’62. I’m not sure. It

was right … close right around there.

CM -- I heard the Filipinos like had parties or ..?

FS -- Oh they did, in the other places. And the ... the fleet would go out,

you know. And they were fishing all week. The Filipinos would always

have a big dance midweek. And ... ah ... you told him that story, did

you?

GG – Oh, no. I didn’t.

FS -- Yeah. There was a guy ... this was over at Todd Cannery, but he

suspected his wife was stepping out on him, you know, going to the ...

little jealous of their women anyway. But ... ah ... he figured his wife was

stepping out on him, so ... She only had one pair of good shoes. So

unknown to her, he put chalk on the bottom of her shoes. And ... ah ...

when he came back from fishing he went and checked the shoes and the

chalk was gone. So, the story is he walloped her a little bit. But they

always did ... they always had ... they’d have big parties, food, booze,

everything. And then they’d invite the women. Of course, all the men

were out at sea. ‘Course the men weren’t angels, either, because ... you

always wanted to go to another cannery, other than your own, you know.

You ... when you take a break ... there’d be the end of the week ... We

fished 5, 6, days a week, and they’d say, well, we’re going to go in, you

know. Well, you always have the cannery you liked the best. Let’s go to

Chatham. And ... ah ... ‘cause you got a couple of days off. And, you

know, you could have a good time in Chatham, or Hawk Inlet, or another

place.

CM -- Did you ever go to one of these Filipino parties?

FS -- Not me. No. No. No. I didn’t.

CM -- Were there any other ethnic groups?

FS -- Not by then. You know, before that there were Chinese. There

were a lot of Chinese up here.

CM -- At Hood Bay?

FS -- No. Way back. I don’t know when at Hood Bay. I’ve never found

opium bottles in Hood Bay. You know. But I’ve ... but I’ve found them in

... ah ... Gambula Bay. The cannery is all gone now. But if you check

Red Bluff Bay ... ah ... those old time canneries that ... ah ... they used

Chinese. A lot of Chinese.

CM -- What about the cooks? Were the cooks any particular ethnic group?

FS -- No. No. In fact, my best friends at Hood Bay were Wade and

Maxine Whitcliff. And they cooked there probably 6, 7 years. They were

white, from Seattle.

CM -- What kind of food did you have?

FS -- Oh, everything good, you know. When you had ... when you had

breakfast, you had 7, 8 different kind of breakfasts. From pancakes, to

… steak if you want it, I guess. You know. It ... it was really good food.

Really good. And in the cannery they’d always have the coffee breaks,

you know. They’d have certain times. And they had sweet rolls, and

coffee … And as far as I know I ... and my wife, she’d know, she’s

upstairs, would say that the people loved going to the cannery. Boy, this

place would clear out. And then there’d only be one or two people in

town. And they’d just jump in everything. The seine boats would be

hauling. They’d be going in skiffs. And it was always a party

atmosphere, you know. Going to the cannery. And they loved going to

the cannery. Every year. They looked forward to it. You’ve got to

remember that, like they said, we lived here for the lifestyle, not for the

money, you know. But you had to earn some money. And that was the

… You got pretty bored being in the village all winter, you know. What

was there to do? Nobody had a job, except the school teachers, a

postmaster, and you know. A few. There were hardly any jobs. So,

when it came around, boy, you were waiting for ... you’re waiting for the

cannery season.

CM -- Did ... did people each much deer, at the cannery? I mean were people hunting?

FS -- Now, this gets into the substance. No. I never saw ... they always

went to the store and bought the … We jigged halibut. And we ate fish

and stuff like that, you know. But we were busy, you know. You just

did ... you didn’t have time to go hunting. You might have a … afternoon

... late afternoon off, after work, or something, maybe. And I remember

we’d jump ... The cook had a really nice speed boat, and we’d run around

count the bear on the beach or something. Just kind of go out for a little

... jaunt around the bay. But, no. No. No hunting.

CM -- What was the alcohol situation like?

FS -- What is this? Anyway … it was bad.

CM -- Yeah?

FS -- It was bad. It makes it look bad, but ... ah ... they used to say

there were about four or five seasons here in Angoon. There was the ... if

I can remember them. I wish Alice was here. There was ..ah ... I want to

get them in order, if I can. There are four or five different seasons. You

know, there was the going ... I guess I counted the ‘going to the cannery

season.’ There was the ‘heat season.’ The ‘heat’ meant everybody went

into heat ... type of thing. You know, like I say, going to a Filipino

bunkhouse, and other things down on the Point. Your Point used to be

one of the favorite spots down there on that …

GG -- That’s what I told them.

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- There’s many, many, many people conceived on this Point.

FS -- I can remember that Point as being full in the evening, down there

on that ... on that side. Full of romancing. And then there was the

‘religious season.’ You get kind of cabin fever, you know. And then

everybody’d start going to church for a while. But … ah ... no. I’m

serious. They used to talk about it. It wasn’t just us. We talked about

the different ‘seasons’, you know. There were … But the booze is the …

When I was a state trooper, like I said, they told us that Indians, in

particular, don’t have a ... I think it’s a particular enzyme or something,

because they hadn’t been around that alcohol for centuries and centuries

like the white people had. And they even told ... it was like, I don’t

remember now, it was like, DNA or, you know, something like that. And

they … ah … alcohol effects them more seriously. That’s what they

always told us. Than it does … So, they were great people, and I’ve

always said the people are really great. It’s just the way society and

these things ... you know, they can’t help ... they basically, can’t help

themselves. If they get into booze. My dad was an alcoholic. And … ah

…

GG -- My dad was too ... ‘till I got born.

FS -- My dad was ‘till the day he died. He loved booze. He did.

CM -- At the cannery, what specifically, what… how’s …?

FS -- It ... just when they got time, they’d party. You know, that’s all

there is …

CM -- Would the store sell alcohol?

FS -- No. No ... no ... no ... they want them to work, you know. If it

came in, it came in on the plane, or fish boat, or you know, would bring

it in, but …

CM -- The … So the cans ... the fish that went out, they ... did the steamer come in?

FS -- Yeah. Um-hum. Yeah.

CM -- Remember any of the names of the steamers?

FS -- It was all those Alaska Steamers -- NORTH COAST, NORTH SEA …

CM -- Ok.

FS -- The ALASKA. You know, they ... whichever one they had coming at

the time. They had about ... the DENALI ... they probably had ... ah ... 8,

10, steam ships. The ones ... the famous ones, you know, that went all

over the … They’d come in every year. Haul out about 20,000 cases of

salmon.

CM -- What kind of ... back to alcohol. What kind of alcohol was people drinking?

FS -- They were … I they couldn’t buy it the boughten stuff, you know,

Black Label or any of those ... they’d make it, you know. Home brew was

... was the big thing. ‘Cause it ... you could make ... you could make 30,

35 gallons of home brew for 5 bucks. Did it myself, so I know.

CM -- As a trooper, you had to ... as law enforcement you had ...?

FS -- No. That was after. I became a trooper afterwards.

Side 2 tape counter 21

FS -- … little still. And Billy Burnhart ran off with it. I heard, it was in

the cabin all ... you know, whole lot a copper, and all the tubing and

everything. And he’d have to work about 24 hours … use the Colman

Stove, and ... to boil the stuff, you know and everything. And he’d get

two bottles out of it … two quarts. He showed me how you run it

through more than once. First you get sour water. And, you know, all

this sort of thing. He really knew how to make booze. And then to make

it look like real booze, he’d burn sugar and put it in it and ... ‘cause

alcohol is white, you know. And then it would look just like regular

booze.

CM -- And the still was out there at Hood Bay?

FS -- No. It was right here.

CM -- Oh. Right here.

FS -- Right here. Right here, you know.

CM -- The ... um ... the plane that you mentioned ...

FS -- Um-hum.

CM -- ... float planes, ever come in?

FS -- Um-hum. Yeah. Yeah.

CM -- Do you remember what kind of planes they were?

FS -- Yeah. It was just about what we have right now, some of them.

But most of them were Grumman Goose. They had the Grumman

Goose. Alaska Coastal Airlines had Grumman Gooses. And then they

had the other … other one, that they finally joined together and made

Alaska Airlines. I know it, just as plain as I know my name, too.

CM -- I know it too, and I can’t remember.

FS -- Yeah. They were in Ketchikan. There were two outfits. Alaska

Coastal, headquarters in Juneau … and the one in Ketchikan. They

joined …

CM -- Elis.

FS -- Yeah. Yeah. They joined together and made Alaska Airlines.

CM -- Do you remember your first plane trip?

FS -- My first plane trip?

CM -- Was it back in those days?

FS -- Yeah. I remember my wife coming home with my son up there.

He’s ... ah ... 43 years old. I remember walking down to the float, they

came in, and I said take him back he’s ugly. That’s ... ah ... about three

days old. But it would have been long before that … Flying around …

Old Shell Simmons ... that’s the one, you know. He’s the one ... the ..ah

... bush pilot up here. And he became famous. They have books out on

him, you know. He ... ah ... he would fly in just about any weather ... ah

... he ... he serviced all this whole Tenakee - Angoon – Hoonah, all those

places. Had several dramatic crashes. I remember one time he rescued

the ... they crashed ... and he rescued a lady. You know, he had to dive

down and get her. And he split his nose. He always had two noses after

that. Yeah. Literally. He had two noses. And, ... but anyway, he ... he’s

the founder of Alaska Airlines. Shell Simmons. And they, you know,

they written books about him. His ... ah ... heroic escapades as a pilot,

bush pilot, around here.

CM -- Where there ever any big accidents that you remember at the cannery?

FS -- No. You know, other than a drowning or something, from booze.

But nothing in the cannery ... for the ...

CM -- No, other than …

FS -- No. Just regular ... just regular things. No. No. Ah ... not that I

know of.

CM -- What was the superintendents house like?

FS -- Oh, in those days, you’d consider it to be ... ‘cause you were living

in a little shack down there burning coal with nothing. It was nice, you

know. It ... it still is, isn’t it. Can you imagine, that place has stood all

these years without any heat and everything … people have gone in and

stripped the inside lumber out and all …you know, done everything. And

the house is still standing. But it was nice. It was really nice. It wasn’t

... ah ... I guess, you might even say, in those days, it was fairly plush,

you know, for ... for up here.

CM -- What did it look like inside?

FS -- Well, you can basically see it right now, the front side, toward the

water, was the living room. And then, as I remember it, the kitchen was

in the back, you know, on … on the left hand side. And then … it seems

to me, and I haven’t been in there for quite a few years, but it seems like

it had a stairway that went up stairs and that was where you would

sleep. But remember - they only used it in the summer. They had a

watchman there all the time though. And his name was - Forrester …

Wade Forrester … Wade Forrester … He was there like 30 years or

something, as the watchman.

GG -- Who stayed in those cabins back in the woods on the west of the Superintendents …

FS -- No, those are those houses I told you … we built those in later

years for the boat captains.

GG -- Oh. Ok.

FS -- Yeah. Over … all by themselves, they start up that thing and go

up?

GG-- Um hum.

FS – Yeah. Kind of staggered as they go up? Those were the boat

captains. And they, you know … that was their house. You knew where

Charlie Jim lived, you know. You knew where they … that was their

house. Just like ours was finally. For a long time you couldn’t get that

till you were there, because, as workers came in, they couldn’t guarantee

house. But once you got a house, then that was your house, you know,

for the summer.

CM -- The boat captains were they local … native …

FS -- Yeah. Uh hum. Yeah.

CM -- What … what were some of their names?

FS -- I just mentioned one there. he can do that as well as … Charlie

Jim, Paul James, Sam Newman …

GG -- Bobby Duncan.

FS – Yeah, he was a young … he was young. Yeah.

GG -- Peter Jack.

FS -- Peter Jack … Willie Jack …

GG – Willie Jack.

FS – Oh, the big ones -- Ronald John … ah … Bennett. What’s … I just

read his name a few minutes ago … ah … ah … David John … ah …

GG -- Mister Frank.

FS – Yeah, Albert Frank.

GG – Frank.

FS -- Sam Johnson.

CM -- What were those boats like?

FS -- Charlie Walters.

GG -- Is that right?

FS -- I fished for you. That was the first boat I fished on was the ROBIN

… and … ah …. The first year I went in … ah … 19 … 49 … 1949! And I

fished on the ROBIN. What did you say?

CM – Well, I … sorry to interrupt. But the boats -- were they local boats?

FS -- Yeah. Yeah. Well …

CM -- Where were they stationed?

FS -- You can go up and see some of them on the beach, right now, up

there … they … the ADMIRALTY … and … ah … MIDNIGHT SUN … and …

ah … JUNIOR … ah … GINGER ANN … when I was a … and the

WOODROW wasn’t a seine boat, do you know who owned that? The store

owner owned it, that was his freight boat.

GG – I’ll be darned.

FS -- Yeah the … Sopalof. That was Sopalof’s freight boat. Then, years

later, they … they … ah … sold the freight boat and they made a seiner

out of … the FOXY … was one boat, was the FOXY. We had about oh …

15 - 20 boats, I guess, fishing for Hood Bay. You know, they were local

… local boats. As far as I know there weren’t any outsiders - there’s all

locals. ANDRES GAMBLE, ELIZABETH BEE, WILLARD on the aeroplane.

CM -- Did you paint those buildings every year?

FS – Yeah. Yeah. We painted, you know, as needed. Cannery …

cannery red. That was part of the … you know, the maintenance thing.

Yeah. Every year you had to replace some boards in the boardwalk. You

had to paint. You had to repair something. There was always … and

they usually let the trap crew … what I call the trap crews … the early

gang is what it was. They went up and did all that. And that’s the one

you wanted to be on, like I said, because you’ve got an early start, you

know. You made more money.

CM -- I was noticing that the far west building - the house - along the beach, that you

would say would be one of the seine captains …

FS -- Um hum. Yeah.

CM -- … houses …

FS – Uh hum.

CM -- … doesn’t have siding. It’s got like … boards with thin battens over … holding tar

paper down. But it was still painted red.

FS -- Um hum.

CM -- As if … red on the siding or something.

FS – Those … those were new. You know, we didn’t build those at first.

First they lived over there and then later they said well, we got, you

know, we’re going to build some houses. So there … so those were built

in the later years … in the … I’d say in the late ‘50s, you know, middle

‘50s … they were built. That side … those were all newer ones there.

CM -- The ones on the far west?

FS -- On the west side, uh hum.

CM -- The west … west of the cannery

FS – Yeah. Yeah. Uh hum.

CM -- What about the … the ten little buildings on the point, to the east?

FS – Oh, they were there … a long time. You know, they’d been there …

CM -- To the east of …

FS – Yeah. Out on that point -- Georges Point, alright. We … we lived in

one out there ourselves, out on the end. But they were there a long,

long, long time.

CM -- They didn’t …

FS -- They … it went like that, you know, out on that point, then came in

… along the … toward the cannery.

CM -- Was it good place ... good houses to live in?

FS – Well, now you probably wouldn’t think so. You know, basically

what it was, was nothing fancy. It was just boards … just boards -- no

fancy wall paper or anything. Just boards. A wood bunk, you know,

with a mattress on it. And a wood stove, or a coal stove. That’s it. But

… I never … I thought it was fantastic … you know … we were happy.

My wife and I talk about all the time. My wife was married before. And

… ah … she lived in San Diego. And … ah … she was married to a man

who actually was going to be mayor of San Diego. He was … ah … you

know, wasn’t rich rich, but he was affluent. And … ah … anyway, we

met, and … ah … she divorced and all that. And she came up with me

here to Angoon. And … ah … we lived in a tent right up here, up the trail

a few feet, for about six months. And then ... ah ... ah ... went to the

cannery. Made about … I think … 700 dollars. And then we built a little

… shack up the trail up here. It’s still up there. And … ah … ninety

dollars a thousand for green lumber from Juneau. I was going to put a

shed roof on it originally, ‘cause, you know, were not talking about bucks

here, we don’t have much money. Went up to Hood Bay and ransacked

the old abandoned places and got windows, and doors, and stuff, and …

anyway, we talked about it to this day -- that those were the happiest

days we ever had. We were up there … you know, we didn’t have much,

we carried water from here. There was no water up there. My dad had

water down here, so we carried it up. And ah … basically, all we had to

eat was … ah … clams and … ah … ah … macaroni and cheese. You

know, that Kraft macaroni and cheese. It was about 25 cents a box. We

could get a gallon of kerosene for … ah … from the store for 35 cents.

We used lamps. we didn’t have any electricity and … just about any day

or night, you’d see me down you know on the beach, this used to be …

no sewers and stuff around here in those days, I’d be down here digging

clams, whether it was summer or winter, you know, spring or winter.

But we talk about it all the time. It was fantastic … now that you look

back at it. You were real physical, you know. Everything you did was

manual and … ah … I don’t know, you’re madly in love and … ah …

GG -- And life was great.

FS -- Yeah, life was good. You didn’t worry about anything. You didn’t

worry. The spring you were going to go over to Kelp Bay and catch a king

salmon and sell ‘em and … you know, we had everything timed. we …

we’d send in our income tax on January the first so we could get it back

as quick as we could. Wasn’t very much remember, ‘cause your not

making … but, any money … any money was important. And you had it

kind of timed out. Ok, I’ll get my income tax back. Then I can go to Kelp

Bay, you know, on the first of May. And I can make a few bucks over in

Kelp Bay. And then I can do this. And then I can do that. You got it all

planned out about … where it’s going to come from as … as you go.

Never had no bank accounts or … or … anything like … you didn’t have

to worry about Visa Cards or anything, you know …

?? – When do you suppose Hood Bay (indeciph)?

FS – Yeah. I was here. I would say that would be … they wanted to

move the town.

?? -- Uh hum.

FS -- They wanted to move the town. Big battle there. Big battle.

‘Cause some people were pretty well settled, some weren’t, you know. I

would say it must have been when I was here in ’49. It must have been

right around ’49. They had town meetings. Boy, bitter too. Well, I told

ya …

?? -- Uh hum.

FS -- It was all in Tlingit, you know. And then they’d translate it, but …

boy they would … they’d really get hot down there. The government

wanted them to move from here because there wasn’t water here. This

place didn’t have water. They drilled all over here when I was a young

guy. Couldn’t find enough water to supply. And they wanted them to go

to the Ranch. Because that water comes off there, you know, and you

got fifty acres, and you got all that land. That’s where they wanted them

to go, was to the Ranch.

?? -- Uh hum.

CM – what’s …

FS -- The government was going to set it all up.

GG -- Knudsen’s.

FS -- Knudsen’s.

GG -- He has ties to that, too.

FS -- Yeah. My grandfather homesteaded that place in … ah … ‘bout

1900.

GG -- I was gonna take them in and show them your grandpa’s boat.

FS -- Uh hum.

GG -- You know.

FS -- Uh hum.

GG -- But …

FS – Yeah. You got busy. Yeah.

CM -- Well … ah … I’d like to go … talk about that, but I got a question.

FS – Yeah. You know, whatever. I said you ….

CM -- You mention electricity …

FS -- Yeah.

CM -- What was the electrical system like at the cannery?

FS -- It was good. They had big generators. They had to have power to

run all those equipment, so they had big generators, diesel generators.

CM -- Did all those shacks then, have electricity?

FS – Yeah. Like … one bulb … one bulb in the main part, or maybe one

bulb in the bedroom. And the bedroom wasn’t this big, you know, you

just talking about where a bed would fit. Yeah. They had good

electricity, you know. Of course, we didn’t have anything other than a

radio, you know. I thing about it everybody had a radio. in those days

you could pick up radio stations clear down to Oregon, and … you know,

San Francisco … KGO San … and they’d come in just as clear as could

be. I remember many a times, we’d listen all night, and listen to the

radio. And it would just come in like you were playing a music box right

here. Now-a-days, there’s so much static in the air and everything you

can’t hear anything.

CM -- What kind of radios did you have?

FS -- We usually had … I had a Zenith, you know, one of those, and it

had a … it was one of those had all the bands on it … and then it had a

big battery, you know, for when you didn’t have electricity. The battery

was about that big and about that high and about that wide … fit in the

back of the case, you know. Radio was the main … main thing to listen

… not the news … I don’t thing anybody listened to the news. We

listened to music, you know, they always had really good music … KBX

Portland, KGO San Francisco, and all these places. You listen to music.

You … you weren’t really interested in what was going on in the world.

CM -- Were there any comedy shows that you heard at the time?

FS – Oh, I imagine, you know, like I say, the only thing that comes to my

mind really clear is the music. when I lived in Idaho, then I can, you

know, ‘As the Day Passes’ or, you know, all these shows we used to listen

to those ‘cause my grandmother … but up here it was music.

CM – So, let’s switch gears then…

FS -- Yeah. Cold in here, isn’t it.

CM – [??]

FS -- No, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m just saying, I don’t have the heat turned

up.

CM -- … move to the west then, there’s the old saltery.

FS – Yeah.

CM -- What did that look like when you first saw it?

FS -- When I was there it had already been abandoned, but buildings

were all there. And that ,again, there’s … the whole family is still alive

on that, the grandchildren anyway. It’s the Dall’s. And they now have

that Dall Fergusson Marine Line. That’s the one that supplies this town

with freight. It’s a freight line up from Seattle. And the grandsons of the

people who owned that saltery … ah … operate it. And, you know, they

… they … that was their … that was their saltery. It had already closed

by the time I …ah … can remember. But the buildings were all standing,

I can remember dishes, and, you know, things around … didn’t seem like

people used to haul things away. They just kind of left them there, you

know, on the thing. And now it’s just … you know … gee 30 - 40 years

[snaps fingers] goes by just like that. It’s all overgrown.

CM -- There’s a big barrel dump there, with oil leaking out of it.

FS -- Um hum.

CM -- Do you remember that?

FS -- Oh, I know that the … no, I … I don’t remember. I’ve seen those

kind of things around most … in … in the cannery, but I don’t remember

that particular one. You can see the equipment on the beach there, you

know. That was quite a place. .They salted herring and … ah … black

cod, back in the old days there. That’s the reason it’s called ‘saltery.’

CM -- Ok. Well, on to Knudsen’s …

FS -- Uh hum.

CM -- What’s the story of your grandfathers farm?

FS – Yeah, my grandfather was … ah … French Canadian. He came to …

ah … he mined … he was on the Chilakoot Trail … and he mined in the

AG, and the Treadwell, and the Juneau. He was also a farmer, having

been down in Idaho. So, he farmed and all this. So, he came out here

and … ah … homesteaded the … what they call … the Ranch. And the …

people now a days call it Knudsen’s, because when my grandfather … my

dad and his brothers and sisters were all born at the Ranch. They were

born right there. And … ah … my dad was born in 1911, at the Ranch.

But anyway … ah … my grandfather came to Angoon here, and the story

is … no one likes this story either, but it … you know, he was a … he

was 34, and he didn’t have a woman. So, he found a 14 year old girl

here who was my grandmother. And … ah … he said - and she said -

that through the tribe … he gave them 10 dollars. It was kind of … and

we … we always thought like buying … he bought my grandmother for 10

dollars. They moved to the Ranch, and they proceeded to have six

children. And … ah … anyway, he homesteaded that place. He had

chickens … ah … ah … pigs … ah … he had two oxen and … ah … we

have the pictures of the oxen there -- Buck and … ah … Bright. He cut

hay. He built a scow kind of thing, he’d go to the fish cricks, and cut

that grass, and bring it back, and … ah … put it in the barn. And he …

ah … provided … ah … milk. he had cows. He provided milk to

Killisnoo. He also … if you saw the steam engine on the beach … did he

see that? That was my grandfather’s steam engine …

GG -- Yeah. He asked me what it was and I said …

FS -- Yeah, he was a logger also. So, he cut … he cut logs and

everything, and made a lot of the wood, you know, the timber for the

Killisnoo cannery, at the time. And then ah … she ran off and ah … I

think that was the cause, anyway, he gave up. He sold it to … Knudsen

and … ah …

CM -- When was that? About?

FS -- Well, my dad was born 1912 … so he was … it would probably have

been about 1915, somewhere in there. That he claimed … and that’s

what I told Gabe, he claimed … he always claimed that Knudsen never

paid him for the thing. So it was always in the family, you know, that

that should be our place, and Knudsen never paid. So, here about ah …

what was it 15 years ago -- 17 years ago, I knew the whole history of the

Knudsen’s, that he had no children. Knudsen’s didn’t. He had a niece

and a nephew. I have their death certificates and everything up stairs

somewhere. But, anyway … and then come to find out, they didn’t have

any children -- either. And so I put … I went to a lawyer and put in a

claim on the property for nonpayment of debt. And I missed it by one

year. Can you believe this? One year is all it was. It … for … when they

died, when those two died, and they had no heirs, they lived in the state

of Washington, it went into probate -- I guess you’d call it. You know, it

sits. There’s no heirs. They tried to find out who the heirs are, or any

claims on that property. And when seven years goes by, they transfer it

over to the Children’s Aid Society of Washington. And ah … Children’s

Aid Society of Washington sold it to Alaska Lumber and Pulp Company

for 21,000 dollars. 54 acres of the nicest land in the area … it’s beautiful

there isn’t it. Well my grandfather built that place too. That was the

main part of that story. it used to be … you probably saw it there, on

this side -- on the west side you’d call it, there’s a big, sandy rock … nice

beach, and it’s curved like this … goes way out like that … comes like

that. And then it goes through … you go into the woods a little ways,

and there was a slue back there. So you came all the way from that

other bay over, on the other side, and there was a big slue. Every high

tide the water came waaay back up in there, see. So, anyway, using his

oxen and all that, he built a dike and stopped the water from going in the

slue. Well, that’s where he ultimately, then, farmed that land -- up in

there. And if you go in today now, you can see the dike is still there,

where he built it. And then from there on its just all nice … it was not

that many trees in those days either, you know. But it was all nice …

just … farmland in there. And that’s where he grew his crops. Now, over

the years, so many years has gone by, a lot of many trees … it’s still open

back in there though. You know. And ah … he … he’s the one that

actually developed the Ranch like that. Or the Japanese … I was always

worried they were going to build something there. They owned it, see.

First they were going to have a log dump there, is what it was. They had

all … I saw the plans. But then with the environmental thing they gave

up on it, you know. And then I thought, well gee, they’s just liable to

build a golf course, or … a you know, some kind of luxury thing there for

rich people. And, that’s what I always worry about here, is our

subsistence way of life, see. We … I never wanted people coming in here

and competing with me to go deer hunting or, you know, whatever I do.

In fact, I … I don’t like going to a bay … if I see one boat in the bay, you

know, I’ll turn round and go someplace else. Pretty hard to do now’a

days, cause there’s boats everyplace. But, you know, I just … I like the

wilderness aspect of it. And they get people with money, we don’t have

money, you know, basically, the community doesn’t. Then you can’t

compete with them because they have the speedboats, and they’ve got

this, and they, you know, they always commercialize, and they do this

sort of thing. And then, you know, you’re not living in the land that you

really like to live in. So I was always worried they were going to do that.

But they didn’t. And now, I guess, Gabe’s got a couple of feelers on it,

but … I think it’s returned back to the Forest Service. Which in my

estimation is a good deal, you know.

GG – Except Gabe might get it yet.

FS -- Gabe might get and develop it. But, you know, at least I’m … it

does hurt to go there, though. Like he said, when you know your dad

and your aunt and uncle and all that were born there, and then when

you walk up in the woods and you see the boat that’s got trees growing

out the middle of it and it still has the name ‘Elsie’ on it -- who is my

aunt, my grandfather named a boat after his daughter … you know, you

feel … it feels like I got cheated or something, and it should be mine. It’s

just so beautiful, it’s unbelievable. But, you know, that’s the way life is, I

guess. I got plenty anyway, so … but I didn’t let you (---)

CM – Oh, no. No. I liked it all.

GG -- Well, tell him about the goat.

FS -- Yeah. My … my … my grandfather was like me. They say I’m a lot

like my grandfather.

GG -- I knew your grandfather, and yeah, you are.

FS -- Yeah. They claim that he just loved to work. Number one -- he

loved to work, and there never was enough hours in the day. And I

always tell my family, all the time, I hate night. I don’t want to go to bed.

I want to go to work. And anyway, that … ah … he would go out and ah

… he’d plow all day … with his two mules … he had two mules, Maggie

and Jakes. But anyway, and at night he’d be so frustrated he’d hook up

the mules and put a lantern and go out and plow at night. But he was

also very stubborn, so, he built that boat himself. He could do just

about anything. Like I said, he was a miner, a logger, a farmer, you

know. And in the old days … that’s what I really admire about the

people. They could do anything. You know, if you wanted a boat built --

they’d build it. If you wanted to put a mine back behind the mountain

over there, they’d carry the equipment over there and do it. It was just

amazing. But anyway, he wanted a boat, so he built a 30 foot boat. Got

it all set up. and he went down to Killisnoo … ran down to Killisnoo,

which is about nine miles, to register it … ‘cause that was the

community and it had a post office, and it had everything. And they told

him, no, you can’t register it, because you’re an alien. He’d never got his

American citizenship papers. So that just pissed him off, excuse me, but

he turned around sailed it back up to Hood Bay, and on the next high

tide, he put it up on the beach and never moved it again. And it’s still

sitting there to this day. He just left it. Couldn’t register it. Nobody was

going to get it … you know …

CM – Well, I’m starting to run out of questions here. What haven’t I asked that I should

ask?

GG – Well, I think, you know, when you asked him about wages, I’d like to hear that, too.

you know, he mentioned how much he got, he and his wife, and how much the ahm … fish

trap guys got, I was wondering what everybody else got.

FS -- It was low. It was really low. I remember the people would come

home, you know, with 250 dollars. That’s about what they’d come home

with. You know, but … but that’s after buying, too. They went, you

know, they used the store, right. And you always … you used the book,

you know, you charged. So, you had to buy your own boots, and you

had to buy rain gear, and you had to buy this stuff, you know. And

they’d …

GG – how much was boots in those days?

FS -- It seems to me they were about 8 dollars. They were about 8

dollars. Somewhere around there. We did the same thing on the seine

boats, you know. Jim … when I seined … my uncle had a Alaska limit

seine boat, and we’d go in, and go to a cannery, and then we’d have to

put it up on the grid, and we’d paint it, and, you know, do all the

maintenance work. And it would take about 30 days of working on the

seine, and doing the … well, the whole time we’re paying our own grub.

We weren’t buying it then. It was going to come out of our share later

on. Your boots and your rain gear, and all this sort of thing. And your

food, too, because, you know, he didn’t pay for … you know, they didn’t

pay for that. So then you went fishing and … we never could … really

caught a lot of fish, you know. Gee, if we got … ah … if we got 20,000 a

season – fish, you know, we thought we’d did fairly well. We never were

as good as Ronald John and all those guys. But we always made as

much money as they did. That was the funny thing. but they … they …

they … they would … they would deduct … they would deduct the stuff

from whatever you made, so, you never came out with … I used to … told

my uncle he … he wanted me to go some more, and I told him ‘no, Jim,’ I

said, ‘if you can’t guarantee me 2000 dollars a year I’m going to go back

and hand troll, because’ I said, ‘I don’t have to get up early in the

morning unless I want to, you know. I don’t have to have jelly fish all

over my arm.’ I was always burning with jelly fish, ‘cause it went up like

that, you know, and it came down and fell on you and everything. No

place to wash. You had a wash basin with cold water, you know. It was

just … it wasn’t good conditions. And I said ‘if you can’t guarantee me

2000 dollars a season I’m gonna go home and hand troll ‘cause I can

make that much hand trolling. And I can do it at my … I like hand

trolling and I can do it at my … at my leisure.’ So, I …I quit … I quit

seining, I know. We never … we never made any money seining, you

know, any big money.

CM -- What about the captains, did they?

FS -- Yeah. They must have, ‘cause, you know, they had like 8 … 8 -10

shares …

CM -- Uh hum.

FS – You know, they got a share for the boat, share for the skiffs …

GG -- They made eight times what …

FS -- Yeah. Eight times … yeah … what the crew member made … yeah.

And then, some boats had more shares. They, like, charged the crew for

… for just about everything. Yeah. One time we went ah … fishing up in

Hood Bay, I mean in ah … White Water, you know, in that October dog

fishery. And we made one set, and we got about 30 fish, and then Jim

says, ‘no use. Let’s go let’s go hunting.’ So, we went deer hunting. And

then, when we came back, he says, right out here in front of the house,

he pulls in this little thing, and he says, ‘here’s five bucks and ah … a

pound of butter.’ That’s what I made for fall fishing -- five bucks and a

pound of butter, and I got to go hunting. And I got a couple of deer.

Yeah. But, he didn’t have to give it to me. We hadn’t even sold any fish

at all, you know. That’s what he gave … he gave everybody five bucks

and pound of butter.

CM -- let me go back and ask another question about the cannery …

FS – Sure.

CM -- You did … you did carpentry work and stuff around there?

FS – Well, you know, I kind of. Yeah. Yeah. I was like a carpenter’s

helper.

CM – What … what … what kind of materials did you use?

FS – Oh, they shipped it all in top grade, you know. It came in on Alaska

Steam, right from the mills. It was always … it was a two by twelve -- it

was a two - by - twelve! And in those days, I’d say that from the lumber I

buy now’a days, you know, it was good lumber. Yeah, it was good. It

wasn’t treated or anything, but it was … when you got a board, you got a

board, you know. That’s all there was to it. But that was all … all

brought in on the … ah … Alaska Steam.

CM -- So the cannery didn’t have a saw mill?

FS -- No. No. Didn’t have enough time to do that, you know. They had

to can the fish. When the fish started coming -- you had to run.

CM -- What about the pilings? Did they use …

FS – They shipped them in. Shipped them in. All creosote.

CM – So, the logs that were cut off the slopes in and around here, some of that was old

hand logging. Is that right?

FS -- Yeah. They did a lot of logging back in the old days on Hood Bay,

Whitewater, Chaik. They … they were … they were logged … my

grandfather was involved in that. And ah … Whitewater Bay 1922, he

was doing some logging. It was all … you can see as you go on up where

Sharp’s Park is, you know, you can see clear cutting there, you know, it’s

not forty miles long …

GG -- Tell them what’s on by Sharp’s … by Sharp’s Park (---)

FS -- You mean the Indian pictographs?

GG -- Uh hum.

FS – Yeah. The kids took some pictures of them this past fall, in fact. I

don’t know what they mean, you know, I don’t know what they mean.

But there’s two or three pictographs on that rock right there.

GG -- How far is it from Killisnoo do you think … to Sharp’s Park?

FS -- It’s not very far, really, you know. I’d think about a mile, mile and

a half.

GG -- Yeah. I told … I showed them …

FS -- Was there somebody …

GG -- I said … when they got all excited I said, ‘well, geez, you know, I can paint you some

tomorrow.’

FS – Yeah. Yeah, right. There’s some kind of gardens there too. Have

you ever seen the humps there? There’s like potato rows there. You …

you can see them. You go, you know, the crick is here and the locks

here, and then over here is a kind of a flat spot, just back, and you can

see the ah …

GG -- The rows.

FS -- The rows. Yeah.

CM -- That’s the place where you showed me today?

FS – Yeah.

GG – Yeah. Yeah.

CM -- That’s called Sharps Park?

FS – That’s what … When I was 15 years old my dad took me up there

and we saw the biggest buck I ever saw … there’s a meadow about 20

minutes back and ah … ever after that we’d always go up there and we’d

call it Sharp’s Park, you know. Probably somebody else called it … but

that’s … that’s what we call it ‘cause, it’s … ah … My boy, he’s a state

trooper now, we’d be here at one in the afternoon and he’d say, lets go to

Sharp’s Park. You know, we can jump in the skiff, get over there, go up,

shoot a deer, and be back here … and be back by 4 o’clock. And it’s just

beautiful up there. There’s a beaver pond, and it’s grassy. The whole

thing is … we always called it Sharp’s Park. We did -- the family did.

GG -- It’s an easy, easy walk.

FS -- Yeah. Real easy walk.

GG -- (--) took me there.

FS – Yeah. My ah … grandson you know the little midget … he … he

went up there this year. And he made it. So it’s not a hard walk, and it’s

close by.

GG -- (---) Frank took me there.

CM -- (---)

FS -- Yeah. I haven’t been there for a long time.

GG -- Uh hum.

CM -- Anything more about the cannery?

GG -- Oh …

CM -- If not … um … I got a ... I’m kind of curious about your law enforcement …

FS -- Uh huh.

CM -- … your career. What … how’d you get into that?

FS – Well, you know, that’s what … that was what amazed me. I was

just like everybody else, you know. I was a young kid. I didn’t really

care about education or anything. And ah … my mother was married

three times. She was an alcoholic. My dad was an alcoholic. Ah … we

traveled all the time. Ah … 30 … I lived in 36 states … ah … before I was

16. Ah … couldn’t even get an education, my excuse is, that, you know,

‘cause you just didn’t stay anywhere long enough. But, anyway, I went

into the Air Force, and ah … that changed me. I give … everything, the

credit -- to the Air Force, ‘cause when I went in there it set rules, you

know, and ah … I became a staff sergeant when I was 19 years old, and I

was in Berlin, Germany, and ah … this is kind of a brag thing, I guess,

but, I ran a communication center, twenty employees – Germans … ah …

you know, that we’d defeated in the war. And ah … sent … I was in

command of a communications center that handled over a million

messages a year, you know, that’s received and sent. But, anyway, then

… what was the question -- I came home. And then what was it?

CM -- Well, your law enforcement …

FS -- Oh. Ok. You want know … the whole time, me living up here in

Alaska -- Hood Bay, Angoon, Tenakee … I lived in Tenakee … and all

around here, fishing, hunting, the things we do just as an everyday

thing, running boats … I didn’t know it was training me for the best

career there ever was, you know, that’s … I … I … I’m convinced that

there’s no better job than being a wildlife officer, at my time, during that

time in Alaska. So, when I … I … the funny thing is … you know, out

here, like I said, there was no money, you know, just very little, and I

was getting a family. Ah … my … we had four children so -- had to do

something. And I applied for a stake out crew. and we had the … used

to be the Fish & Wildlife, in that time it was Fish & Game, ah … hired

guys in the summer, trained them to hide out, and they put them out in

fish streams that were closed, areas that were closed, and they would

actually hide out, they couldn’t leave any evidence or anything, where

they lived, or anything. We taught them that. I later taught them that.

But, anyway, I applied for this job and they turned me down. And you

know why they turned me down was because I was from Angoon, see.

And in those days Angoons were known to be pretty good crick robbers.

So, I guess, in their minds … I just assumed this, ‘cause they turned me

down. They turned me down. and ah … so then I went … I ah … one

day, we lived in this cabin up here, there was a … and this whole leads

into this … takes me a long time, there was a knock on the door and this

lady comes in and she says ‘I’m with the Bureau of Indian affairs and ah

… ah … (---) Garns told us that there’s a nice young guy up here wasting

his life, and that ah … we should come and see you and see if your

interested in ah … Indian Relocation Programs’. See, I’m one quarter

Tlingit, so I qualify under the … because of that. Anyway, I was …

sounded pretty good to me. They said they’d send me down to ah … ah

… San Francisco, California and train me. And I’d already been a

teletype operator in the Air Force so I wanted teletype repair, ‘cause I

thought I could be an operator / mechanic. And so they sent us to

Oakland, California. And we spent a year down there, my wife and

family. And then we came back up and ah … they had a job for me in

Anchorage, as a … I went to electronics school. They didn’t have a

teletype repair, so they said ‘oh, we’ll just send you to a electronics

school’ and I went to RETS school -- radio electronics television school,

in Oakland, and ah … Anyway, they had a job for me in Anchorage and

we drove up the highway. Got to Heins Junction and I told Alice, ‘I don’t

know as I want to go up.’ I didn’t like electronics anyway. And I said, ‘I

don’t know, southeast has always been good to me, to us. Ah … I think,

you know, maybe we should go back to southeast.’ So, instead of going

up to Anchorage, we turned and came to Juneau. And that summer I

came out here and fished. had a friend … Tommy Gregory, a fish buyer,

you know, those guys … Anyway, then we went into town and I got a job

with the state as a clerk two -- 250 dollars a month. And ah … then ah

… finished out the winter with that. Came back out and went fishing

again the next summer. And when I went back they said, ‘we got a better

job for you. And ah … you go into administration, a clerk three -- 350

dollars a month. And I’m getting up the game warden thing here. So

anyway, while I was there I had my name on all the recruitment things

that I was eligible for. They have a regular … a bank of … of things. You

can apply for any job that you qualify for. And then they have a list. So

your, you know, from one to 50 on the list. So, anyway, I always wanted

to be a boat officer because I was always been around the water and I

had my name down for boat officer. But in the meantime, they said ‘well,

how would you like to be a multilift operator?’ That’s running a printing

press. My step dad had been a printer, so, I said ‘ok.’ That was 415 a

month. And then ah … one day they said ‘hey, you just got cheated on

the list.’ And I said ‘well, what?’ They said ‘Bob Leguire, over in Sitka,

hired a boat officer, and he’s a non resident, and ah … your number one

on the list.’ So anyway, they helped me, and ah … you know I was

working in recruitment at the time, so they helped me out. And I went

over to Sitka and started running a boat – temporary. And then they

came to me and they said ‘well,’ I’d worked there about a year, and they

said ‘how would you like to be a Protection Officer down in Petersburg?

We just fired the Protection Officer down in Petersburg.’ And I said

‘sure.’ so that’s how I became an officer, but that was the first time I’d

really been an ‘officer officer’ even though I did enforcement at running

the boat also. And then I just went from there. I went from Petersburg

to Ketchikan, from Ketchikan to Anchorage. Retired as a Captain from

the Department of Public Safety. But, what I was going to say was that

this background … when I got in -- I was an expert. No one knew

anything about commercial … they’d never salmoned, seined, they’d

never trolled, they never halibuted, they’d never, you know, done all

these things. So, automatically, here I am, you know, sitting there. Not

that I was that great a fisherman or anything, but I was the only one that

knew anything about it. So, it just, you know, click ... clicked along and

... ah ... that’s it.

CM – Well, there’s just, maybe, two minutes left on the tape. I’m wondering what the

funniest thing that ever happened to you -- story you have from your Fish & Game

enforcement …

FS -- Funniest story? There … there weren’t many funny things. The

worst thing that happened … the story that happened is … read Alaska

history … that supposedly I was kidnapped by the Canadians.

CM -- That’s … too bad.

FS -- it’s not true. But, supposedly I was kidnapped by Canadians, and

if you go to … it’s ah … Alaska … geographic is it, history, and look up

‘Sharp, Frank W.’ it’ll tell you full scale about how I was kidnapped by

the Canadians. That was probably … it is funny, but, it was the biggest

incident, as an officer …

CM -- was there any truth, I mean, any truth …

FS -- No. I can tell you the story, but, you know, just it takes longer

than two minutes. Yeah.

GG -- Well, you know, what I’d like … what I’d ah … because Frank is so good at

everything, you know, what I’d like for … to see him do is look at an old map of Hood Bay

Cannery, point out, you know, identify some of the houses as to who owned them

CM -- Yep.

GG -- And ah …

FS -- Yeah

GG -- Something’s came in …

FS -- Yeah.

GG – Heck, we don’t have anything.

FS – Yeah.

GG -- We have nothing.

FS -- The ones I can thing of, you know, as far as the houses go and who

was in them …

GG -- And where buildings were and stuff …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- You know, I mean …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- Yeah.

FS -- Yeah, the store.

GG -- The store …

CM -- … take a break?

FS-- Yeah. Sure.

Tape 2 Side 1

CM – Ok. We’re back on tape. So this is Tape # 2. Chuck Mobley here. Got Gabriel

George, and Frank Sharp’s on the mic, and we’re talking about Hood Bay Cannery, and

I’m gonna go to the bathroom.

GG-- So, anyway, um … this is, of course, Ganzs Point.

FS -- Yes.

GG -- Which is here. Which is where the …

FS -- Yeah. Yeah.

GG -- … the houses …

FS -- The houses are …

GG -- There’s 11 houses.

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- As you can tell, there’s … what they call native shacks here …

FS -- Uh hum.

GG -- So, this was … this was like um …

FS -- That’s where I lived.

GG -- This was like um … before the cannery was purchased by …

FS -- Oh. Oh.

GG -- I assume was … that natives worked there before the ACA bought it.

FS -- Uh huh.

GG -- And they bought it in 46, I think.

FS -- Was it … uh huh.

GG -- I think so. So … I, you know, I don’t know.

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- You know, that’s why I was interested in time …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- … in time and stuff, you know.

FS -- Well, see, this had to be earlier ‘cause this shows the Oriental

Bunkhouse here.

GG -- Uh huh.

FS -- And there wasn’t any …

GG -- Oh. Ok, so …

FS -- … when I was there. Yeah.

GG -- So that was why we couldn’t find an …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- … an Oriental Bunkhouse …

FS -- Yeah.

GG … there.

FS -- There wasn’t any.

GG – And, then, of course, there it goes off …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- … into Lot 36 …

FS -- yeah.

GG -- That’s where the superintendent’s house is

FS -- Yeah. Oh, is it?

GG -- Yeah. Ok, it’s right here, even …

FS -- Yeah. Uh huh.

GG -- … you know …

FS -- No, there never was … any … not even any sign of it …

GG -- Huh.

FS -- … by the time I got there.

GG -- Um hum. Yeah. I think … ‘cause what we’ve found now is that there’s the

generator shed was like right here, I think. And the ah … the boilers …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- … and then the generators.

FS -- Yeah. Yeah. The generators were round in here, someplace. Yeah.

GG -- Um hum

FS -- No. Then this walkway, you know, it … it came just like this, and

came across, and just kept on going …

GG -- Uh huh.

FS -- … all the way around, you know, …

GG -- Uh huh.

FS -- … over to here someplace. The walkway. Like that. It says one

way, so it’d be one went … just went like that. Went around the edge.

And then … then there were, there were all houses …

GG -- On both sides?

FS -- … you know. Yeah. Here, this is where the ah … cookhouse was.

GG -- Uh huh.

FS -- Right here. That’s the cookhouse. And they have the ice shed. It’s

still there -- the freezer thing is still there. They ripped off some of the

boards …

GG -- Right. Right.

FS -- … on the bottom, you can see the insulation, right behind here,

see, right here …

CM -- Uh hum.

FS -- The office was right here. Office and store -- right here.

CM -- In the ‘W’ where …

FS – See, here’s the cannery and the warehouse right here, just this side

of …of the cookhouse. Right here …

CM -- To the west of it.

FS – Yeah. Right here. Right about where it says ‘W,’ you know, right in

… right about right there …

CM -- The ‘W’ of warehouse.

FS – Yeah. Right there. There’s a little office, and then the store. Right

there.

CM -- Uh hum.

FS -- And then the cookhouse, and bunkhouse … it says, you know,

upstairs … they’ve … the cook. And then there’s … went right here

there’s a little opening, and then went : houses; houses; houses; houses;

houses; houses; houses; all the way. And then on this side too: houses;

houses; houses; houses.

CM -- Uh hum.

FS -- This float wasn’t here, unless I’m looking wrong. It was over here

where your house was -- the one you guys stayed in.

GG -- Our house, it’s right here.

FS -- Yeah. Ok. That’s were the airplane float was, right here.

CM -- Is that also the fuel dock?

FS -- Yeah. Yeah. There’s also an airplane float, right next to it, this

side.

GG -- You recognize the pictures?

FS -- Here’s the airplane float. Yeah. See.

GG -- Uh huh.

FS -- There’s the airplane float. And there’s the oil dock.

CM -- Uh hum

FS -- There’s your house, where you stayed, right there.

GG – Right. Right.

FS -- That’s …

CM -- Where’d the watchman stay?

FS -- He lived right there. He had a house right there. Right in here. It

might have been that one, but it was right in here.

CM -- Right to the west of …

FS -- Yeah. Uh huh.

CM -- … of Gabriel’s …

FS -- Yeah

CM -- … shack.

FS -- Yeah

CM -- Ok.

FS -- There you go. You can see now. You see there’s the … there’s the

bunkhouse. That’s it, right there. There’s the … the store and stuff right

over here. And there’s the bunkhouse. This unit here. It’s kind of a

funny angle, it goes, you know, you … you … want to … and then this

float here, actually, to me is further over here, but that must be the one

that … it seemed like it was over here, more. Like this. It’s right there.

There it is. It’s just the way … see there’s the airplane float. There’s the

oil dock. And that’s the house you guys stayed in.

CM -- This airplane float -- is that the same float that were looking at here?

FS -- Yeah, must be. That’s what I say, when you look at it from the

angle, it looks – pushed. But that’s it.

CM -- Yeah

FS -- Yeah. That’s the airplane float, right there. See it? And there it is,

right there.

CM -- Uh huh.

FS -- Got a little ramp on it. See it.

CM -- Yep. All flat.

FS -- Um hum.

GG -- And the captains’ houses were …

FS -- Yeah

GG -- … were back in here? Were back in

FS -- Further. If you said the whatchacallit … yeah, they’re back …

they’re this way. The laaast ones in the woods there.

CM -- Uh hum

FS -- you can see trees have grown up all around them. Bushes and

stuff. See, you can see all these houses. See how they are going along

here. There on both sides …

CM -- … of the boardwalk.

FS -- Yeah. There’s a boardwalk going along here. And you can see it

comes further this way. There were some tanks up here – fuel, that was

fuel tanks, right up there. Matthew or somebody, they moved ‘em, didn’t

they. From up there. That’s where the fuel tanks were for the oil docks.

See, up here.

GG -- I guess there was fuel in them and I think he got some -- and resold it.

FS -- Is that right?

GG -- Yeah.

FS -- That’s the FOXY right there.

GG -- I don’t know.

Cm -- That’s what Peter … Frank said.

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- Jack.

Cm -- Jack.

FS -- Yeah. My dad ran the … my dad ran the FOXY for a while. Well,

that looks like the FOXY. And this one right here is either the MIDNIGHT

SUN or the GOOD TIDINGS -- right there. Looks like it to me. Can’t

quite make it out.

GG -- Yeah. Peter Jack thought it was um … MIDNIGHT SUN.

FS -- Uh hum

GG -- JUNE K.

FS -- Yeah. The JUNK.

GG -- Is that what they called it?

FS -- They called it the JUNK.

GG -- Is that right?

FS -- Yeah. Yeah. JUNE K. – Klushkon -- that’s who it was named after -

- June Klushkon.

GG -- Huh.

FS -- JUNE K.

Cm -- Do you … you know, you said that had um … documents?

FS -- I might have. I said I might have. Uh huh. I’d have to dig through

a lot of …

GG -- Oh, yeah. We need the date on this too. I didn’t write down the pertinent

information. You had it upstairs.

FS -- Is that right?

GG -- Is that 1960?

FS – Gee, I don’t know.

GG -- You have it on your book … on your um …

FS -- Do I?

GG -- Yeah.

FS -- Oh.

GG -- The dates. You know how you are.

FS -- Yeah. Alice did that.

GG -- Oh. Ok.

FS – See, I can’t …

GG – Oh, right here. Do you know … you know ‘bout this ah … ah … ah … mink farm?

That was here, or martin farm, or …

FS -- No.

GG -- Or whatever it was?

FS -- No. No. No. Where is that though?

GG -- Here’s the cannery.

FS – Yeah.

GG -- And you go along here, there’s a bluff or rock …

FS – You’re heading west now?

GG -- Heading west.

FS – Uh huh. And that crick is there?

GG -- That little stream comes down.

FS -- There used to be a house there, I told ya.

GG – Ya, there’s a … there’s a… there’s a ah … house -- log cabin, and along this side

here there’s ‘bout, what do you say, 30 …

Cm -- Over 30 …

GG -- Over 30 ah …

FS – Pens?

GG – Pens.

CM – Pens, really.

FS -- Uh huh. Uh huh. I notice that ah … if that’s the place I’m

thinking of - again … now where is the cannery again?

GG -- Cannery is right here

FS -- Right. And then, this is what?

GG -- These are … Lot 36 here …

FS -- Is there a nice little sand beach, right here?

GG -- Yeah.

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- Yeah.

FS -- Ok. Yeah. There used to be a house, nice looking little house, sat

right here on that, right close to the beach.

GG -- Uh hum.

FS -- Nobody was in it, but it was sat right there.

CM -- Did you ever go inside?

FS -- Well, I must have, you know, but I don’t remember. Yeah. It was

just sitting there, old abandoned place.

CM -- Hugh rock fireplace …

FS -- Huh.

CM -- … in it.

FS -- Uh huh.

CM -- And then …

FS -- Well, it’s gone now. The house is …

GG – Yeah.

CM -- Well …

FS -- Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Ok.

CM -- The fireplace is still there.

FS -- Yeah. Ok. Yeah. I say, I haven’t seen the house in years, so I

haven’t been over there.

CM -- It’s a log cabin.

FS -- Well, yeah. It was nice, I remember. It wasn’t too big, but it was

nice.

CM -- And then to the west, not … only just a few feet, are the fox or mink …

FS -- Well, back in the old days, you know, in the 30’s, everybody raised

mink around here. Every island, every thing around this whole country

was fox, excuse me, fox farms … fox farms.

CM -- These are definitely too small for fox.

FS -- Yeah. Well, mink. Well, they raised fur farms, like all of them. but

most people, around the islands, they raised fox.

CM -- Uh hum.

FS -- So, they put them out, so they wouldn’t swim away, and all that

kind of stuff.

CM -- Just …

FS -- And they let them run around loose.

CM -- About 25 feet to the west of these mink pens …

FS -- Uh huh.

CM -- … cages, is a bunker that’s set into the side of the cliff,

FS -- Huh.

CM -- … with logs about this big around.

FS -- Uh hum.

CM -- Really, a couple - three feet …

FS -- Yeah.

CM -- And it looks like it had a sod roof, ‘cause the … the logs that went across it to hold

the cover are pretty big also.

FS -- Uh huh.

CM -- And it looks like a cellar.

FS -- Well, that’s what they … I was gonna say, I bet you it was a root

cellar.

CM -- Well …

FS -- Because they used made a lot of them. There’s one right down

here. Have you ever see the one towards Scott’s camp?

GG -- Uh hum

FS – Huh? Well going along the trail, off on the side there. They used to

build a lot … they’d dig this hole, you know, and then put a roof and

everything on it. And then keep their stuff from freezing and everything.

CM -- We were thinking maybe it was to keep the fox food from freezing.

FS -- I don’t know.

CM -- (unintelligible)

FS -- They used their … almost everyone used to have a root cellar.

CM -- Uh huh.

FS -- They called them root cellars, you know. For potatoes and carrots

and that kind of stuff.

CM -- Do you remember when the cannery burned down?

FS -- I was ah … ah … I was down on that Indian Relocation, I think

then. That’s the year we … we … went south on that Indian Relocation

thing.

CM – What … you mentioned the steam donkey that your …

FS – Yeah.

CM -- … Grandfather used,

FS – Yeah.

CM -- … and that’s like, just to the west of the saltery. Is that correct? Just, not too far

…

FS -- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. West of the saltery.

CM -- Shows up … the big rusty thing shows up …

FS -- Uh hum. It’s all sitting on the beach, there.

CM – Yeah. What’s … what can you tell me about that?

FS -- All I know is … they told me that was my grandfathers ah … I

mean, you can see where they logged up there, that was ah … he had a

saw and everything, that he cut … you know, he had a little mill there.

There used to be a smokehouse there. Right at the … where we called …

just about any little building that you stayed in and did anything in was

called a smokehouse. They smoked fish there, too. So, probably all …

it’s all fallen. I don’t even go ashore there anymore, you know. I go into

the Ranch once in a while, but I … I don’t go in there.

CM -- What are these um …

FS -- Those are just the little … windows.

CM -- Windows.

FS -- You know, what do you call those things that you have them on a

house?

GG -- Dormers?

FS -- Dormers. Had a … I imagine what it was, is to let in some light,

you know.

CM -- Uh hum.

FS -- … and rather than putting them like they do now, right in the roof,

‘cause you’d have to seal them, they build like a little … roof on it. So,

they wouldn’t tend to leak, you’d put the windows on the end, and then

the light could come in.

CM -- Uh hum.

FS -- Up there is where the ah… they kept all the empty cases, and all

that stuff, up on the, you know, the cans and the empty cases and all

that, up in the upper part of the … of the cannery. In the warehouse.

This is the warehouse side. The cannery’s the next one over.

GG – Uh huh.

FS – Yeah. Like that, see. That’s the warehouse. That’s the cannery.

CM -- did you ever work on the boilers?

FS -- What do you mean? Work on them?

CM -- Ever have anything to do with them - at all?

FS -- No. No. They … just on the retort side. You know, they had all

those mechanics and everything that did anything with the … that kind

of stuff.

CM -- Out here on the point …

FS -- Uh hum.

CM -- … it looks … that’s where Gabe’s …

FS -- Yeah, that.

CM – Yeah, that … that’s where Gabe’s dad’s smokehouse …

FS -- Uh hum. Yeah.

CM -- …was, here?

FS -- Yeah. Uh hum.

CM -- And it’s a really natural location for an … Indian village …

FS -- Uh hum.

CM -- … that’s even older than that. But we didn’t see any evidence…

FS -- Uh huh.

CM -- … of that. Do you have any feeling for that?

FS -- No, I don’t. No.

CM -- Never saw anything that would …

FS -- No. Huh uh.

CM -- … that’d be any evidence of that?

FS -- Huh uh. There used to be a Russian ship right on the other side …

CM -- A Russian ship?

FS -- That’s what they always said, it was a Russian ship. It was sitting

there all rotting away. It was partly in the water, you know, but you

could see a lot of it. They said it was a Russian ship.

CM -- You … didn’t have anything to do with the cannery, you don’t think?

FS -- I don’t know why it … to tell you the truth, I don’t know. Kids used

to dive off of it and everything. I don’t know what it was … had been

there a long time, obviously. it was a pretty good sized boat. Yeah.

GG -- Yeah. It’s just a little bit … that’s why, you know, it wasn’t … somebody else

talking, I said … you need a map to …identify where that thing was.

CM – Uh hum.

GG – You know …

?? – somebody whistles through their teeth?

CM -- Well this has been a big help for me.

FS – Hum.

GG – Uh huh.

CM -- … all this.

GG -- I’ve learned lots, tonight, myself.

FS – Yeah. I didn’t hear … I didn’t hear anything that was historic there

at all.

GG -- Yeah?

FS -- When I try to think … I must be 70 years old, you got to … there’s

got to be some other people … Matilda worked at the cannery. Ah …

Beth Jack did.

GG -- Yeah. Yeah. Beth Jack did.

FS -- She was a foreman. One of the foremen. She was Alice’s foreman.

Yeah.

GG – And, of course, Alice, you know.

FS – Yeah. Alice worked at the cannery.

GG -- Wouldn’t bother her. She’s … how’s she feeling?

FS -- She can’t hear anything hardly now. Boy, she’s having a hard time

hearing again.

GG -- But like I said, I knew that you’d be really good …

FS – Yeah.

GG -- … that’s why I wanted to …

FS – Yeah.

CM – Yeah.

GG -- I didn’t want to miss … have them miss out on it.

CM -- Yeah. When were you born, Frank?

FS -- Again, that’s one of my misfortunes. I was born 1932, but I wasn’t

born in Alaska. Remember, I traveled all over. Well, when my folks were

having trouble, I had a pair of grandparents who were ah … staid

business people, you know. 50 years they ran a clothing store in

Orofino, Idaho. And it just happens that’s where my grandfather, when

his wife ran off, went - to log and farm, and ah … he had his kids in an

orphanage over in ah … Seattle for a while. Then, when he got settled,

he took his boys and daughter over to ah … Idaho. And my dad met my

mother, and I’m the offspring of that. So, I was born in … I hate to admit

it … Orofino, Idaho.

GG – But, you … my folks knew … they knew … remember ya …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- … clear as day, when you came back.

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- This little kid …

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- … you know, in a red shirt and cowboy hat …

FS – Yeah. Probably. 1935. 1935 I came … came up … for the first

time. but during the war I made 8 trips back and forth between Alaska

and … the Second World War … I made 8 trips between Alaska and …

and down south. I’d just get up here and then they’d say ‘well, were

going to send ya back.’ And then get up here, they’d send ya back. So I

went on Ala… I traveled on everyone of the Alaska Steam vessels. Plus a

couple of the Canadian … Princess … boats.

GG -- Do you know who … who own … or who stayed in that building we’re staying at …

that we stayed in?

FS -- I would say that was the watchman.

GG – the watchman?

FS -- It has come to me that’s where …

GG – Forrester?

FS -- … Forrester lived.

GG – Yeah?

FS – Yeah.

GG -- Forrester?

FS -- It was right in there. Yeah. Seemed like it was further up though.

GG – Huh.

FS -- That’s the reason I have a feeling that he had a place, ‘cause it

seems too low.

GG -- Uh huh.

FS -- It seemed like it was … up … high up in the air.

GG – Well, that’s a hill there.

FS -- I know, but it was … they had to get a stairway, and, you know, to

get up to it.

GG – Yeah. Yeah.

FS -- I don’t remember it being that close. But it was right over there, …

GG – Huh.

FS -- … you know.

GG – Uh hum.

FS -- If it was in the air, it was that one. But I remember it being up a

little. And he had two kids, you know.

GG – Right. Right.

FS --He had two kids. So it had to be a little bit bigger. That’s small.

GG -- And one of his kids became a doctor, huh.

FS – yeah.

GG -- The girl?

FS – Margy. Uh hum.

GG – Hum.

FS -- It was a great life.

CM -- Um hum

FS -- It was.

GG – Yeah.

FS -- Simple, but great.

GG -- That’s what I told them. I said that you could bring a smile to a few peoples faces

today.

FS -- Yeah. Yeah.

GG -- Peter Jack was remembering and he started smiling, and I said ‘yeah. Good times,

huh Pete’ and he says ‘yep.’

FS -- Yeah.

CM -- Should we call it a deal?

FS -- Yeah.

GG -- Yeah.

CM – Ok.

FS -- Sure.

CM -- You signed the release?

FS -- Yeah. There’s nothing there that ….